i caught my son wear nail polsih/makeup

[Guest]

what you 'believe' is only your uneducated opinion and not scientific fact

So then ignoramous what 'are' the scientific facts about lads of 15 wearing nail varnish - enlightnen me.

i don't know the scientific facts and never said i did. i'm not the one telling parents what they should and should not do and what is right and wrong in how they raise their kids, like you have done. you are the one calling people names for pointing out that you are unqualified by education or experience in parenting or child psychology to make such statements. who is the 'ignoramus' then?

I have been a child. I know children. I have a niece whom I very close to. I have friends who have children. Ive worked in the fields of mental health and drug abuse form the last 11 years where unforunately in many instances the root cause to illness has included unhealthy relationships and negative nurturing as children (not that im suggesting this lady is at all in this bracket). Iv taken part in much training around human nauture - healthy and unhealthy ways to be (child or adult) and I look at things very much from a person centred way. I dont need to be an academic to have observed through my own life and that of others leading me to have a strong grounding as to why I feel and think the way I do. I have a wealth of experience in working with 'actual' people. And whilst im sure a PHD would impress many (and maybe one day il have one), I'll express myself how i see fit and be confident in doing so.

And for the last time I called you an ignoramous justifiably. You comments were ignorant - and unlike my own viewpoits - 'without' grounding or foundation.

Im not telling anyone what to do, merely giving a point of view. He is her child and she'll make up her own mind.

[The Colonel]

what you 'believe' is only your uneducated opinion and not scientific fact

So then ignoramous what 'are' the scientific facts about lads of 15 wearing nail varnish - enlightnen me.

i don't know the scientific facts and never said i did. i'm not the one telling parents what they should and should not do and what is right and wrong in how they raise their kids, like you have done. you are the one calling people names for pointing out that you are unqualified by education or experience in parenting or child psychology to make such statements. who is the 'ignoramus' then?

I have been a child. I know children. I have a niece whom I very close to. I have friends who have children. Ive worked in the fields of mental health and drug abuse form the last 11 years where unforunately in many instances the root cause to illness has included unhealthy relationships and negative nurturing as children (not that im suggesting this lady is at all in this bracket). Iv taken part in much training around human nauture - healthy and unhealthy ways to be (child or adult) and I look at things very much from a person centred way. I dont need to be an academic to have observed through my own life and that of others leading me to have a strong grounding as to why I feel and think the way I do. I have a wealth of experience in working with 'actual' people. And whilst im sure a PHD would impress many (and maybe one day il have one), I'll express myself how i see fit and be confident in doing so.

And for the last time I called you an ignoramous justifiably. You comments were ignorant - and unlike my own viewpoits - 'without' grounding or foundation.

Im not telling anyone what to do, merely giving a point of view. He is her child and she'll make up her own mind.

So what exactly is your view?

[Guest]

My view is that as individuals we work out our identity, who we are, what we like, what we dont like, what makes us feel uncomfortable, what makes us feel ok.............

I dont believe that its up to our parents or anyone for that matter (however well intentioned) to decide our wellbieng for us and what exactly that should involve. To have a fixed view of 'someone elses' makeup is in my opinion more about a persons own view of the world and rights from wrongs not neccessarily thiers. And I believe theres a difference bewteen teaching a child good manners and respect and supporting and loving them vs forcing them to take on your view of the world and your view of how you think they should act and behave when they're not harming anyone just exploring themselves.

I am no less a woman cause I very rarely wear a skirt or dress. David Beckham is no less a man because he wears nail varnish. The goth bloke in the street is no less of a man becuase he wears make-up and nail varnish, nor is a goth woman any less of a woman because she wears head to toe black and covers herself in arguably unfemeine make-up.

I agree with you that it may be worth a little exploration as to why he wants to wear it - in the way that anything thats new with kids is worth asking about. However even if it were a gender thing and he actually felt like a girl trapped in a boys body the best thing in my opinion would be to support that exploration to enable him to explore with himself and work out how he actually feels. Forcing him to fight it whilst possible making the parent more comfortable will surely only serve to mess him up, make him feel bad and guilty that what he feels cannot be accpted. Equally if its a goth identity for example or just simple experimentation again why would it not be the best thing to support that?

What would your concerns be? If you say no surely you are just saying 'i feel a bit uncomfortable and embarassed about this therefore i dont want you to do it? Isnt that about you not the child and is that really fair or wholesome for the child? And at age 15 is it not also giving a message that you dont feel they are mature enough or trustsworthy enough to make decisions of themselves about how they look? This is purely about 'him' and his choices as a person and I think that deserves respect - even if its uncomfortable for the parent.

[Guest]

I also think that Im fortunate in that the circles I've moved in and my job has meant Iv come across many many different types of people with different values and in a lots of cases people who understand how it feels to be oppressed and therfore hold a more open view of the world and the people in it. Difference is something that in my opinion should be harnessed not rejected and trust me when you feel different theres nothing like the feeling of acceptance and not being judged. Its a great boost to ones self esteem when someone tells you 'so what, you are who you are' vs 'well i think its wierd/freaky/abnormal.......its not the way it should be'. I dont think anyone has a right to tell another how they feel and how they should conduct themselves. And you dont have to agree to accept.

[The Colonel]

Yes, an individuals identity is important, however I think 15 is perhaps very slightly too young. In the UK children become “there own person” at the age of 16, which is where legal parental responsibility ceases.

I understand the point, and agree that by this age a child is able to think for themselves, and they should be permitted some exploration and expression.

However, it remains up to the parents to decide what is acceptable while the child is living under their own roof. That will vary from person to person. I am glad you agree that understanding “why” is an important consideration, rather than just a “what the heck” attitude.

Let me give you an example from my children. My eldest son around a year ago or so wanted to get his ear pierced. Obviously, in my generation this wasn’t something that was socially acceptable (although, I didn’t let that cloud the issue). From my perspective, and my wife’s, we considered the following: his age, his level of maturity and sensibility, why he wanted to, plus our own opinions on the subject (including how appropriate it may be).

It was already evident that he was old enough to decide for himself, and his maturity was far beyond his age, so the real issue focused upon why he wanted it, and what we thought to be best. He informed us it was something he wanted to do and try out and something which was in fashion and quite popular. Our considerations were how socially acceptable it would be, and judging by the numbers of boys/men who do with very little negative reaction, we allowed him to do so.

I will admit that I wasn’t thrilled by it, as it’s not something I understand (yes, I know I’m showing my age!) but we permitted it on the basis of understanding why, and taking into considerations that he may not have thought about.

On this issue regarding nail polish, I once again admit it is not something I understand from my generation. But in order to come to a conclusion, you need to assess the factors I outlined above: age, maturity, reasons why – and then parental perspective.

Of course the outcome would differ person to person, but I personally would have to say “No”.

[Guest]

Yes, an individuals identity is important, however I think 15 is perhaps very slightly too young. In the UK children become “there own person” at the age of 16, which is where legal parental responsibility ceases.

I understand the point, and agree that by this age a child is able to think for themselves, and they should be permitted some exploration and expression.

However, it remains up to the parents to decide what is acceptable while the child is living under their own roof. That will vary from person to person. I am glad you agree that understanding “why” is an important consideration, rather than just a “what the heck” attitude.

Let me give you an example from my children. My eldest son around a year ago or so wanted to get his ear pierced. Obviously, in my generation this wasn’t something that was socially acceptable (although, I didn’t let that cloud the issue). From my perspective, and my wife’s, we considered the following: his age, his level of maturity and sensibility, why he wanted to, plus our own opinions on the subject (including how appropriate it may be).

It was already evident that he was old enough to decide for himself, and his maturity was far beyond his age, so the real issue focused upon why he wanted it, and what we thought to be best. He informed us it was something he wanted to do and try out and something which was in fashion and quite popular. Our considerations were how socially acceptable it would be, and judging by the numbers of boys/men who do with very little negative reaction, we allowed him to do so.

I will admit that I wasn’t thrilled by it, as it’s not something I understand (yes, I know I’m showing my age!) but we permitted it on the basis of understanding why, and taking into considerations that he may not have thought about.

On this issue regarding nail polish, I once again admit it is not something I understand from my generation. But in order to come to a conclusion, you need to assess the factors I outlined above: age, maturity, reasons why – and then parental perspective.

Of course the outcome would differ person to person, but I personally would have to say “No”.

I agree with you that the buck stops with the parent until 16 if thats how you parent . I've been in threads previously with you where your kids have been discussed and from what I know I personally have great respect for the way in which you care for your children. Your story about the earing goes to show how you will go against your own grain in hopes of doing the right thing by your kids. Like I said - I wasnt telling anyone what to do. Coming here with a dilema invites any personal contribution and not yet bieng a parent isnt a pre-requiste to knowing nothing about kids - i remember distinctly what it felt like to be one. However I do acept that as a non-parent theres things and feelings I cannot possibly understand.

I cant imagine how it feels to want to make decisions that you believe protect your child - thats the feeling I get with you about the nail varnish? Maybe when I have kids I'll surprise myself and do similar. It also feels like you have strong images/feelings about differences between men and women and how to be accepted in the larger society, so for you it is how it is? I just sometimes wonder who parents are 'really' protecting when they make such decisions. The lad himself doesn't appear phased by it feels completely wrong to me to not allow him to wear the bloody nailvarnish lol. He can decide himself whether or not he wants to challenge negative views or fall-in line or actually decide he's not that bothered afterall and give it to his mum.

I suppose it feels wrong for me that he shouldnt be allowed and feels equally as wrong to you to allow.

[Guest]

In the UK children become “there own person” at the age of 16, which is where legal parental responsibility ceases.

This is the truth but I suppose it depends what you deem 'their own person' to be. Legally sure, the parents can pull the legal card whenever they see fit however regardless of what is written in black and white in a law book we are all working out our identity, what works for us and what doesnt from birth. For the self critics and questioning among us this probably never stops. Some things we keep, some we throw away, some we dont wanna look at, some we're ashamed of, some we're proud of...............Not sure age is relevant?

[The Colonel]

I believe age does have a certain amount to do with it. Of course, a person is an individual from birth, but that individuality only starts to be explored in such a may that may influence their future lives, around and about the teenage years. You may disagree, but I think age and level of understanding are important to take into account. Admittedly, in certain circumstances age might be an irrelevance, but with this issue I think it is important.

I've been in threads previously with you where your kids have been discussed and from what I know I personally have great respect for the way in which you care for your children.

Thank you.

I cant imagine how it feels to want to make decisions that you believe protect your child - thats the feeling I get with you about the nail varnish?

It does come down to a form of protection. I would say it was largely from ridicule and hostility. I attempt not to be drawn into stereotypes, sometimes its difficult not to, and sometimes people interpret responses as being stereotypical when you weren’t intending to be.

If this boy was mine, I would be concerned that he would be verbally or physically bullied or attacked, face ridicule from his friends, peers, teachers, other relatives, or others in general, and so on. I admit I might be taking the issue to the extreme, but nevertheless if I didn’t consider those implications I think I would fail in my role as a parent.

It also feels like you have strong images/feelings about differences between men and women and how to be accepted in the larger society, so for you it is how it is?

I’m not sure whether you feel this from my academic thoughts (on gender roles for example) or from other things I’ve said.

Men and women are different in a variety of ways which is undeniable. From what I may have said on socialisation and gender roles (e.g men are raised to be strong, fight and compete, women are raised to be wives and mothers) that is purely sociological theory (and it does have truth to it, even with modern change). However, that doesn’t mean that I expect my wife to be a housewife, look after the children and cook and clean for me – because I certainly don’t (plus my wife would kill me!) My thoughts are simply that boys should be raised to be boys and girls as girls. Explorations of various kinds have to come later on, from the teenage years onward.

Acceptance is a problem for anyone. That’s why I think decisions such as this are not appropriate for a 15 year old. As I said above, ridicule and bullying are potential problems at the best of times, without “ammunition” for someone to use against you. Therefore I think it is important to be at a sensible age and to be mature and confident of who they are as an individual. Large amounts of which I believe comes within the 16-20 age bracket.

I just sometimes wonder who parents are 'really' protecting when they make such decisions

In my case, I am attempting to protect the child, until such time as that child is old enough to protect themselves (and even then to have the parents as a source of support if needed). I know parents can be selfish, and I very likely have been, but I do my best not to be, and put the kids first.

[Guest12345]

Hey just wanted to give you a little update on what happened with the whole situation. So l was still a little unsure and wanted to be 100% positive that he wanted to get his nails done, so l told him that l was going to the salon to get my nails done pink and if he wanted he could join me and also get them done only pink. I was pretty sure he would say no cause he wouldn't like the color, but to my amazement he said sure and he wouldn't mind. So we went to salon where l knew the owner and l had already told them about the situation so they wouldn't be surprised and make him feel awkward. So we both sat down at the same time and l must admit, it was alot of fun getting my nails done while watching my son get his done too. By the way they looked amazing, and he actually looked great with his nail done pink. So we went shopping right after and everyone admired his nails especially the young girls. After we got home l decide to be fair and also do his toe nails pink to. He looks great and loves nail polish, and we both agreed that we would go get our nails done a deep red colour next time we go and l actually cant wait for it. On a side note, hes also told me he wanted his ears pierced a while ago but had told him no, but now lve decided to get them done when we go to get our nails done. This will be a perfect birthday present for him, red nails and earrings. Thx everyone for the support, and let me know what you think

[Guest]

whens his birthday?

[The Colonel]

Hey just wanted to give you a little update on what happened with the whole situation. So l was still a little unsure and wanted to be 100% positive that he wanted to get his nails done, so l told him that l was going to the salon to get my nails done pink and if he wanted he could join me and also get them done only pink. I was pretty sure he would say no cause he wouldn't like the color, but to my amazement he said sure and he wouldn't mind. So we went to salon where l knew the owner and l had already told them about the situation so they wouldn't be surprised and make him feel awkward. So we both sat down at the same time and l must admit, it was alot of fun getting my nails done while watching my son get his done too. By the way they looked amazing, and he actually looked great with his nail done pink. So we went shopping right after and everyone admired his nails especially the young girls. After we got home l decide to be fair and also do his toe nails pink to. He looks great and loves nail polish, and we both agreed that we would go get our nails done a deep red colour next time we go and l actually cant wait for it. On a side note, hes also told me he wanted his ears pierced a while ago but had told him no, but now lve decided to get them done when we go to get our nails done. This will be a perfect birthday present for him, red nails and earrings. Thx everyone for the support, and let me know what you think

To be honest, I don't believe this.

[Guest]

Hey just wanted to give you a little update on what happened with the whole situation. So l was still a little unsure and wanted to be 100% positive that he wanted to get his nails done, so l told him that l was going to the salon to get my nails done pink and if he wanted he could join me and also get them done only pink. I was pretty sure he would say no cause he wouldn't like the color, but to my amazement he said sure and he wouldn't mind. So we went to salon where l knew the owner and l had already told them about the situation so they wouldn't be surprised and make him feel awkward. So we both sat down at the same time and l must admit, it was alot of fun getting my nails done while watching my son get his done too. By the way they looked amazing, and he actually looked great with his nail done pink. So we went shopping right after and everyone admired his nails especially the young girls. After we got home l decide to be fair and also do his toe nails pink to. He looks great and loves nail polish, and we both agreed that we would go get our nails done a deep red colour next time we go and l actually cant wait for it. On a side note, hes also told me he wanted his ears pierced a while ago but had told him no, but now lve decided to get them done when we go to get our nails done. This will be a perfect birthday present for him, red nails and earrings. Thx everyone for the support, and let me know what you think

To be honest, I don't believe this.

Noodles here - actually Colonel I dont either. The last post felt somewhat suspect me thinks but thanks to you for some great communication anyway

OP - if im wrong im sorry, just feeling a little too far fetched now.

[The Colonel]

The last post felt somewhat suspect me thinks but thanks to you for some great communication anyway

My pleasure.

[Guest]

Hey just wanted to give you a little update on what happened with the whole situation. So l was still a little unsure and wanted to be 100% positive that he wanted to get his nails done, so l told him that l was going to the salon to get my nails done pink and if he wanted he could join me and also get them done only pink. I was pretty sure he would say no cause he wouldn't like the color, but to my amazement he said sure and he wouldn't mind. So we went to salon where l knew the owner and l had already told them about the situation so they wouldn't be surprised and make him feel awkward. So we both sat down at the same time and l must admit, it was alot of fun getting my nails done while watching my son get his done too. By the way they looked amazing, and he actually looked great with his nail done pink. So we went shopping right after and everyone admired his nails especially the young girls. After we got home l decide to be fair and also do his toe nails pink to. He looks great and loves nail polish, and we both agreed that we would go get our nails done a deep red colour next time we go and l actually cant wait for it. On a side note, hes also told me he wanted his ears pierced a while ago but had told him no, but now lve decided to get them done when we go to get our nails done. This will be a perfect birthday present for him, red nails and earrings. Thx everyone for the support, and let me know what you think

To be honest, I don't believe this.

Noodles here - actually Colonel I dont either. The last post felt somewhat suspect me thinks but thanks to you for some great communication anyway

OP - if im wrong im sorry, just feeling a little too far fetched now.

you are a little too far fatched for yourself

[Guest]

Hey just wanted to give you a little update on what happened with the whole situation. So l was still a little unsure and wanted to be 100% positive that he wanted to get his nails done, so l told him that l was going to the salon to get my nails done pink and if he wanted he could join me and also get them done only pink. I was pretty sure he would say no cause he wouldn't like the color, but to my amazement he said sure and he wouldn't mind. So we went to salon where l knew the owner and l had already told them about the situation so they wouldn't be surprised and make him feel awkward. So we both sat down at the same time and l must admit, it was alot of fun getting my nails done while watching my son get his done too. By the way they looked amazing, and he actually looked great with his nail done pink. So we went shopping right after and everyone admired his nails especially the young girls. After we got home l decide to be fair and also do his toe nails pink to. He looks great and loves nail polish, and we both agreed that we would go get our nails done a deep red colour next time we go and l actually cant wait for it. On a side note, hes also told me he wanted his ears pierced a while ago but had told him no, but now lve decided to get them done when we go to get our nails done. This will be a perfect birthday present for him, red nails and earrings. Thx everyone for the support, and let me know what you think

I'm sure your son is happy he can now wear nail polish and not be told 'no' just because he is a boy. Do you plan to tell him ahead of time that he can have his ears pierced so he can enjoy the anticipation?