Good guys finish last?

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Postby noodles » Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:51 pm

MaxtheGaul wrote:noodles, of course he is who he is. But if he's anything like me (at his age) he needs to be more assertive and a few clues as to what works won't do him any harm. People behave in ways which are conditioned by their upbringing, and sometimes it can be stifling. Being more relaxed is definitely part of it, but knowing what is OK is also important.

There's been some good advice here OP will sort out the wheat from the chaff.


He may be absloutely nothing like you at your age - which is actually my point and a couple of posts here arnt gonna give you that info - you'd need to really know him. Assertiveness come with self belief not trying out what worked for everyone else. He knows where he's coming from even if it doesnt feel like it right now.
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Postby Mr A » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:47 pm

Crimson wrote:Wow I wake up and it's on it's second page, thanks for the info all. Well I'll have to start slow, to be honest I'm not as nice as I tend to show people. I act a lot tougher with my family, so I guess it's time to start showing that side to other people. Like I said I'm not looking for sex right now, so I'm not going to give women that view of me. Sure probably down the line if I see things are progressing into something good then I'll start giving those signals. I would flirt with the girl and probably kiss her as well to show her that I want to be more than friends, but not go all out. I guess I'm trying to walk that edge of being a dick and being nice, I guess I have to have a little of both. Oh and what's PUA? I've heard this on another forum but never understood what it meant for? Thanks for the info all.



PUA is an abbreviation for pickup artist. very good detailed info that works those guys have.

this site is good.
http://www.fastseduction.com/guide/

but to get a propper understanding so that it becomes useful you will have to much much reading, not just on that site but lots of other sites too, thats where google comes in handy



list of commly used acronyms if you decide you want to do some reading there

http://www.fastseduction.com/acronyms.shtml
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Postby G Wizard » Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:31 pm

Crimson, for what it's worth I've had a lifetime of shyness and deficit of confidence. But I do have my good moments. And many of those good moments was when I was just clowning around and didn't care what people thought. Within the guidelines of good taste, of course. And that's a lot of what being confident is all about.

The other angle on being confident is knowing full well what the likely outcome of an arbitrary scenario is. Which is where having a sharp wit comes in handy. For example, you might be having a dialogue, and someone says something which could be taken another way (eg, sexual double entendre) so you say something to underscore that fact, without actually coming right out and saying something which might be inappropriate to the situation.

Quick example:

One person says something like "Wow, that's long." And you quickly add "That's what she said." and grin. Maybe wink. Or go with an exaggerated innocent look, maybe add something like "What? I'm just sayin'," and leave it at that. This will go better either with people you're comfy around, or with total strangers in a relaxed setting. If there are people in your crowd who would deliberately antagonize you, then best to just keep quiet.

Something I discovered which really helped me was IRC. Or chat rooms, if you prefer the more generic version. I eventually realized I could easily be more myself, more naturally funny, polished up my timing, schmooze, make deadpan comments, don't play the suck-up, add in a modicum of self-deprecating humour, etc. My epiphany was that I could easily play the game, so long as I didn't have to deal with a woman's gaze. Whether that gaze would see right through me for the shy guy that I am or whatever, the point is that a woman's look can derail me. Until I get to know her, of course.

Another thing to consider is to keep stretching your comfort zone. If you don't, you'll be stuck where you are forever. And sure, you might luck out meeting someone appropriate. But you'll improve the odds if you can keep stretching your comfort zone.

Something to consider is to take up an activity (karate, chess, basket-weaving, whatever) or a course (Italian, baking, whatever) which throws you into the midst of like-minded people. Language courses or cooking courses are a good bet, because more women tend to take those courses than, say, motorcycle maintenance. Then you'll be able to focus on the task at hand, but there's a pretty good bet that you'll find yourself thrown into interactions with other students. You can commiserate over things you don't understand, or if you've managed to grasp something that she hasn't, you can show her, then try to teach her. Be careful not to come off as a know-it-all, because that could kill it right there. You can hint at knowing something she doesn't know, but act like you don't know something and make a joke about how bewildering it gets. Again, the success of delivering a bit of humour isn't just about the content as much as it is about the timing.

Practice, practice, practice. If you're just at the coffee shop for 10 mins and see a barista (if she's not too busy) or another patron (if she's not too distracted), see if you can't find something light or amusing to talk about. Nothing too deep or lengthy. Don't get into politics or religion, as those are potential minefields.

Have fun. :)
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Postby Crimson » Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:28 am

Thanks for the info G Wizard, actually next year I'd like to take some college course on base, mostly a Japanese language class. I know I'd meet some women there. I tend to stick closely on base, but I'm being kicked out and into a place off base so I might interact with more Japanese women in that sense. I see what you're saying about the humor and timing, to be honest I usually always have a quick response to anything anyone says but I hold my tongue. Mostly because I tend to have a dark sense of humor at times, and I'm just a little afraid of the outcome. I can't change that though, so I might as well go with it and see what people think of me. Oh and as far as chat rooms go, I tend to be a lot more open, even more so talkative _ than in person. I've met quite a few people I knew _, and they are like "Why are you so quiet in person?" If I was half as talkative _ as I was in person I'd be much better off, maybe it's the fact that I'm not face to face with someone that gives me that confidence to say whatever. I just have to translate that to the real world. :?
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Postby G Wizard » Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:55 pm

Hi Crimson,

I don't think I quite picked up on it before, but I now realize you're in Japan. And you mention 'base', so I take it you're in the military...?

Also, you say 'college' which is a fairly common American reference, so (and I'm reaching here), I take it you're an American abroad. (By way of comparison, had you been Canadian you might have said "night school" or "university course".)

A good friend of mine in San Francisco was originally from Peru. He had a noticeable accent when he spoke English, but he also had charm up the wazoo. He definitely knew how to play the game with women. Even so, he signed up for an Italian course through the Goethe Institute in San Francisco. He said that almost every other student was female, and many of them were attractive (by his standards, and given his popularity, he could afford to be choosy). He would of course play the "oh dear, my English isn't very good" card and smile and act cute, but it was all just a game to him.

But Japanese culture? Whoa. I don't know how easy it would be to meet up with Japanese women, although I suspect it would be quite challenging if you don't know how the game is played there. Even so, the fact that you're there and I am not means that you're already a lot more clueful than I am in this regard. All I did was take a Japanese course waaaay back in my university days.

But I'm guessing when you take a Japanese language course, most of the students there would not be native speakers. So that would definitely work well, given that you'd all have the same challenges.

Practice practice practice! ;)
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Postby MaxtheGaul » Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:01 pm

noodles wrote:He may be absloutely nothing like you at your age - which is actually my point and a couple of posts here arnt gonna give you that info - you'd need to really know him.


noodles, you're missing the point. He is who he is and it isn't working, so he needs to make some changes.

He will decide which ones to make and when to make them, but he needs to know that other people have been through this and come out successfully the other side. He doesn't have to imitate me or anyone else, but he does have to do something or life will continue as it has.

There may be some girl who is his perfect match, and he may meet her one day, and she may take the initiative, but that's leaving a lot to chance when a few changes now can make all the difference.

noodles wrote:Assertiveness come with self belief not trying out what worked for everyone else.


Not necessarily, self belief can come from trying things you haven't dared try before and discovering that they work for you, assertiveness can be one of them.

There are many chickens and eggs in life, trying to sort out which order they came in can be a lot less productive than accepting that they exist and making the most of both.
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Postby Crimson » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:41 pm

Haha thanks for the responses all. G Wizard yes I am an American, and I'm in the military currently stationed in Japan. Japanese culture is a lot different, picking up women here will be harder, but they are used to us Americans and in fact like us around here. Maybe it's the fact that they think we are better somehow, but they like having us around, if it wasn't for them we wouldn't have the base I'm currently at right now. College would be on base, and mostly filled with other GIs learning Japanese as well. The girl I want to ask out I actually kind of know. She works in my building, and although a while back I would have never asked her out, I've somewhat grown to like her. I thought she had left for another base, but apparently she just went on leave, and I saw her yesterday. She's pretty nice, in fact yesterday she was volunteering at the post office, and I had a package I needed to pick up. I didn't realize she was working at the counter till I got up to turn in my slip. I had this look like "oh, you're here" and she had the same look, I just said "hi" and she went and got my package. She came back with this huge smile on her face and she told me jokingly "My channels better be working today!", and I smiled and laughed and said "I'll work on it" as I was heading out. I work on cable TV here on base, so that's why she said that. So I'm glad she feels comfortable enough around me that she can joke with me, it'll make it easier when I try to get in closer with her. I said I wanted to take some "time off" to better myself and make myself a better person, but I also kind of want to get to know her know until that time comes. The only thing that I'm afraid of, is that it'll put me in the "friend zone" and by the time I'm ready to start going after her she'll say "Just friends". Any thoughts on this?
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Postby MaxtheGaul » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:28 pm

Crimson wrote:The only thing that I'm afraid of, is that it'll put me in the "friend zone" and by the time I'm ready to start going after her she'll say "Just friends". Any thoughts on this?


If you want to go all the way with a girl, then be prepared to go all the way just as soon as she is ready for it. Hold back and someone else will take your place. You have been warned. Applies to Japanese women just like any others.
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Postby Crimson » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:21 am

MaxtheGaul wrote:
Crimson wrote:The only thing that I'm afraid of, is that it'll put me in the "friend zone" and by the time I'm ready to start going after her she'll say "Just friends". Any thoughts on this?


If you want to go all the way with a girl, then be prepared to go all the way just as soon as she is ready for it. Hold back and someone else will take your place. You have been warned. Applies to Japanese women just like any others.


So I should hold back on talking to her until I really want to ask her out?
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Postby G Wizard » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:47 am

Interesting development.

You've heard the saying, "Strike while the iron is hot"?

It sounds to me like the iron is hot. ;)

Just ask her out for coffee or a quick bite somewhere. And definitely work on the eye contact (not to the point of stalkerish staring).

In retrospect, you could have said, "Whoa, I didn't expect you here" or even "This is a nice surprise," then "Hey, you wanna grab a coffee/bite to eat sometime?" and when she says "Sure," you just say "How about this afternoon/tonight/tomorrow at lunch?" Even give her 2 options, which on the one hand shows flexibility on your part while making her feel like she in control of the situ. Which is true to some extent, of course.

Given that the opportunity is missed, if you know for sure she'll be there next time you go there, you could go sniffing around for packages, when she comes over to help you, you could make a silly "I don't suppose there's anything here for me, is there?" Don't forget the smile. Then if she's still as friendly as today, dive right into the coffee/snack question.
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Postby Crimson » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:58 am

Haha, well it kinda just snuck up on me. I'm not sure if I want to start anything right now, next month will be one hectic month for me, hell even into February and I want to have some time to get settled before I go after her. It kinda sucks because even though we work in the same building, I see her but once a week during PT on Friday's. I may start talking to her, but I fear getting into the Friend Zone, so you can see my dilemma. I could email her and such, but at the same time I think it might be weird don't you think? Idk I don't think I'm fully ready right now to start dating her with all the things coming up in my life, but I don't want to move in and start talking to her only to put me in the Friend Zone by the time I am ready. I'll probably joke around with her a lot, and "bump into her" at times if I can just to get her to be more comfortable around me without falling into the Friend Zone for the time being. I'll make of "scenarios" where I'd need her help, I do need her for things in my job so I'll just bring those things up, even if I don't really NEED them. Haha.
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Postby G Wizard » Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:31 am

I dunno, man.

It's been said that by the time a woman first meets you, she already knows whether she would sleep with you or not.

If you don't give chase, she may figure you're not interested. And given that she's probably looking, she'll just look somewhere else. And then you'll be on the Friends list for sure.

Worth noting: affairs of the heart rarely follow a predetermined or dictated schedule.
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Postby Crimson » Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:39 am

G Wizard wrote:I dunno, man.

It's been said that by the time a woman first meets you, she already knows whether she would sleep with you or not.

If you don't give chase, she may figure you're not interested. And given that she's probably looking, she'll just look somewhere else. And then you'll be on the Friends list for sure.

Worth noting: affairs of the heart rarely follow a predetermined or dictated schedule.


Yeah you're right, eh I'll get close to her without wading in that that Friendship Zone, but close enough to show her I'm interested. It'll be tough, but yeah I know it's not always something that's dictated with time.
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Postby MaxtheGaul » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:22 am

Crimson, I think you're running scared and making excuses. Go for it have fun and see where it ends up. At least you'll learn from the experience. Otherwise you'll more than likely just miss the boat and be forever wondering what might have been,
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Postby Crimson » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:34 am

Excuses? Maybe, but things always seem to come at me when I least expect them to. Like I said, I'm going to try and start talking to her, ease into her for now. If things go well, then I may ask her out to a movie or something and go from there.
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