How porn affects women

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elliott20
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Postby elliott20 on Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:45 pm

. wrote:i'm quite surprised by how simplistic the responses are. the idea that nobody here has seen women feeling like second class citizens because of porn in the work place, nobody has seen how porn has seeped into mainstream media magazines like nuts, nobody thinks there's anything wrong with giving more prominece to a girl nude girl kissing another girl than a female nobel prize winner... i don't buy it.

guns don't kill people, people kill people, but the gun isn't half a useful tool.

I don't know what kind of work place you work at, but where I live, people have lost jobs and companies have been sued for that kind of behavior. In fact, I dare say that now a days at work it is fairly standard for most employees to at some point have to undergo sensitivity training. (Which is basically a glorified way of warning the employees that harassment of any sort will cause dismissal)
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Kalith
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Postby Kalith on Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:47 am

. wrote:i'm quite surprised by how simplistic the responses are. the idea that nobody here has seen women feeling like second class citizens because of porn in the work place, nobody has seen how porn has seeped into mainstream media magazines like nuts, nobody thinks there's anything wrong with giving more prominece to a girl nude girl kissing another girl than a female nobel prize winner... i don't buy it.

guns don't kill people, people kill people, but the gun isn't half a useful tool.


If you want to argue i will...i got time, date not for another couple hours.

Porn works both ways, but in the end we make the concious decision to be affected by it. You could look the other way, or if it really bothered you report it. Those who are partaking in such activity would be warned at the least. But seeing how you are argueing here, i would assume you haven't and are just letting it happen, becoming a victim. Take action or shutup. If you are taking action and nothing happens, sue or leave.

And gun are a useful tool, hey so is a knife/pencil/fists/or anything sharp or blunt or anything at all. Like i said, if there were no guns it would be the next best thing till we were all vegetables.
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Postby Guest on Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:05 am

Kalith wrote:
. wrote:i'm quite surprised by how simplistic the responses are. the idea that nobody here has seen women feeling like second class citizens because of porn in the work place, nobody has seen how porn has seeped into mainstream media magazines like nuts, nobody thinks there's anything wrong with giving more prominece to a girl nude girl kissing another girl than a female nobel prize winner... i don't buy it.

guns don't kill people, people kill people, but the gun isn't half a useful tool.

If you want to argue i will...i got time, date not for another couple hours.

Porn works both ways, but in the end we make the concious decision to be affected by it. You could look the other way, or if it really bothered you report it. Those who are partaking in such activity would be warned at the least. But seeing how you are argueing here, i would assume you haven't and are just letting it happen, becoming a victim. Take action or shutup. If you are taking action and nothing happens, sue or leave.

And gun are a useful tool, hey so is a knife/pencil/fists/or anything sharp or blunt or anything at all. Like i said, if there were no guns it would be the next best thing till we were all vegetables.

You lack mature insight and reason like a child. :?

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Kalith
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Postby Kalith on Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:57 pm

. wrote:
Kalith wrote:
. wrote:i'm quite surprised by how simplistic the responses are. the idea that nobody here has seen women feeling like second class citizens because of porn in the work place, nobody has seen how porn has seeped into mainstream media magazines like nuts, nobody thinks there's anything wrong with giving more prominece to a girl nude girl kissing another girl than a female nobel prize winner... i don't buy it.

guns don't kill people, people kill people, but the gun isn't half a useful tool.

If you want to argue i will...i got time, date not for another couple hours.

Porn works both ways, but in the end we make the concious decision to be affected by it. You could look the other way, or if it really bothered you report it. Those who are partaking in such activity would be warned at the least. But seeing how you are argueing here, i would assume you haven't and are just letting it happen, becoming a victim. Take action or shutup. If you are taking action and nothing happens, sue or leave.

And gun are a useful tool, hey so is a knife/pencil/fists/or anything sharp or blunt or anything at all. Like i said, if there were no guns it would be the next best thing till we were all vegetables.

You lack mature insight and reason like a child. :?


Seeing how i am still a teenager i would assume that is normal. But either way i see the world cut and dry. Choose to do something or shutup. So far it has worked out fine for me. There is very little grey for me, perhaps that is a problem with me. But i will get over it. In all honestly that helps me see the world what it really is no lies or bullshit. Sorry if that offends you that i dont take sympathy in what should seem like such an easy situation. If there is something crucial i am missing maybe instead of using you oh so mature insight and adult reasoning tell me so i can adjust my opinion.
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Postby Guest on Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:23 am

Your main issue is that you talk a lot without saying anything. :wink:

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Postby Kalith on Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:52 pm

. wrote:Your main issue is that you talk a lot without saying anything. :wink:


Then you in all your adult wisdom cannot figure out my main point and for that i am disappointed. Amazing that despite adults saying they are so wise they still miss a teens point of view.

I AM SAYING STOP COMPLAINING AND DO SOMETHING OR MOVE ON. NO POINT COMPLAINING ABOUT SOMETHING YOU DO HAVE CONTROL OVER. SHE CAN CHOSE TO DO THINGS BUT HAS NOT.
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Postby Guest on Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:28 pm

. wrote:
. wrote:that's a pretty weak pro-porn argument though. porn doesn't necessarily contribute crucially to r**** and murder. therefore it's ok.

hmm.


A rapist may or may not look at porn. The porn is not causative to r****.

I can't believe I have to explain this.


you're speaking in ignorance. some rapes are not inspired by porn. some are inspired by porn.

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Postby Guest on Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:33 pm

Kalith wrote:
If you want to argue i will...i got time, date not for another couple hours.

Porn works both ways, but in the end we make the concious decision to be affected by it.
i don't know who you mean by 'we', but there's statistics to show women are immediately negatviely affected by the sight of it. so it's nto really a conscious choice.

Take action or shutup. If you are taking action and nothing happens, sue or leave.
don't tell me to shut up. who do you think you are?

And gun are a useful tool, hey so is a knife/pencil/fists/or anything sharp or blunt or anything at all. Like i said, if there were no guns it would be the next best thing till we were all vegetables.
if it wasn't that it would be something else? worse pro-porn argument ever... completely turns a blind eye to the degradation of women, the effect that porn has on men, the message it sends out in society.

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Postby Guest on Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:33 pm

Porn works both ways
this is a completely meaningless remark.

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Postby Guest on Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:12 pm

It has been pointed out as of late that r**** existed long before pornography did. This is generally used as a blanket statement to exonerate porn from any ill effect. Obviously, there are several problems with this idea, though it seems like a strong enough thought on the surface.

Sure, r**** has existed before pornography was invented, if we assume that cave paintings aren't pornography. (For those of you who use the defense that porn has been around in the form of cave paintings for that long I'd also like to point out that r**** has been around that long as well so you're kinda shooting yourself in the foot with that defense) For the purposes of this discussion we're going to assume that porn, as we know it, has been around for about 30 years give or take.

For us to determine what role porn plays in r****, we first have to determine what r**** is. Is r**** sex? Is r**** control? Is r**** a hybrid between the two?

r**** is using sexuality as a weapon to punish or control another human being. For r**** to occur at least one other thing must happen. The rapist needs to see his victim, not as a human being, but as a creature that is less than he is. He has to have lost his ability to empathize with her pain. He has to view his victim as little more than an object. Objects do not feel. Objects do not object to their treatment. Objects do not have a say in what they are, they just are.

Here's what I contend. Porn causes r**** because porn is built on the same principals that r**** is built on. Control, domination and objectification. Porn doesn't cause all r****, but all rapes share the same values that porn shares. Control, domination and objectification.

These things are present in each and every rapist. The core belief that a woman's desires are less important than a man's desires. That a man's desires have a right to be fulfilled by any means necessary. The core belief that women are simply a means to an end. An ideology that includes controlling people around him. These are all touted, with great reverence, in pornography.

In pornography, sex becomes violence. Slapping buttocks, calling women names, dehumanizing them, all are part and parcel of pornography. All of this does a fine job of conflating sex with violence and those are the VERY things that rapists have in common; conflating sex with violence.

r**** is a crime that perverts control with sex. It is a way to hurt women through their sex. To control women via their sex.

Porn perverts sex with control. It defines women by their sex, objectifying them in the process. Pornorgraphy is a medium through which pain and pleasure become almost inextricably linked.

Rapists are not born, they are made, and our society is making them. Porn is making them. It is making and creating rapists by instilling the very same notions of control, dominance, submission and sex that all rapists have.

No, porn doesn't cause all rapes. Nobody has suggested that. Although, the porn apologists have a hard time seeing that and they make an assumption that if r**** has been around since before porn that porn cannot be causing rapes. What they're NOT looking at is that porn holds so many of the same ideologies that rapists hold that the two are intrinsically linked.

In porn we see a woman being f*cked by a man. Her screams of 'pleasure' are eerily similar to a scream of pain. As he is F****** her he may be slapping her on the buttocks, he may be calling her 'lady', 'c***' or 'Slut'.

In r**** we see a woman being f*cked by a man. Her screams are screams of pain, which are eerily similar to the screams of 'pleasure' from a porn star. As her rapist is F****** her he may be slapping her, he's probably calling her a 'lady', a 'c***' or a 'Slut'.

In porn we see women, stripped, the focus is on their parts they are objects for consumption.

Rapists do not r**** humans, they r**** objects.

Porn creates rapists by hardening them to a woman's protests, by hardening men to women as HUMANS first and women second. The values taught in porn are identical to the values of the rapist.

There can be little doubt that porn causes men to view women through a callous lens. It allows them to disassociate from them entirely. In porn, women are presented as objects, nothing more, and the number one thing that a rapist has to possess is the ideology that women are objects.

There is no way around this. Sure, there are other mediums in which women are objectified, it happens all the time, but porn is the only media which displays sex, objectification and control all in ONE package. It is the ONLY medium in which pain and pleasure become inextricably linked. The ONLY medium in which women are so clearly dehumanized and degraded. And those people who refuse to see it, those people who claim that they CAN'T see it, the ones who say that there is nothing dehumanizing about being called names while engaged in sexual intercourse, are already dead to women.

If a person is unable to see how the acts in pornography degrade, dehumanize and objectify women then they are already useless to women. They are already on their way to meeting at least one of the criteria of a rapist, that criteria being decreased and/or no empathy towards women.

I say that the ideas and messages inherent in pornography, in ALL pornography, is a glorification of the rapist’s mentality. Pornography is not just a byproduct of a sick society; it is a documentary of a sick society, a reflection of a sick society, and an instruction manual for being a member of a sick society. Just like the Gladiatorial Games were a reflection of, a documentary of, and an instruction manual for the brutality of ancient Rome.

And if an Emperor in ancient Rome passed decrees and laws intended to make Rome a peaceful, less brutal place with peaceful people, but without changing or banning the Gladiators, it wouldn't do a damn bit of good. You'd have a Rome that preaches peace but whose people were still violent.

Apply that to pornography. Want a real-world example? Look at Sweden. Every politician has to claim to be a "feminist" to get elected, and they have scads of "feminist" laws on the books... but they still have r****, sexual violence, glass ceilings, and most of the other problems associated with mindsets. Not just any mindset, but mindsets that porn promotes.

A society can often be judged by its most popular form of entertainment. Pornography is a 56 billion dollar a year industry, which is more than the NFL, MLB, NHL, and NBA combined. That's more than the yearly revenue of ABC, NBC, CBS, and Fox combined. Pornography is unquestionably our most popular form of entertainment. It is a reflection and a reinforcement of what our society values.

Are the porn values the same values you'd want your children to learn in school? Porn values nothing more the degradation and dehumanization of half the population to make the other half feel secure in their dominance.

Pornography and r**** are not related by some mystical "common cause" any more than bomb making and publishing the Anarchist's Cookbook are. They are simply reflections of each other, and pornography FEEDS r****. r**** FEEDS pornography. It's a vicious cycle that has to be broken somehow. But that's another post.

Pornography causes r****. The evidence shows it no matter how you try to twist it around. The "common cause" of pornography and r**** could be said to be a society that exists on the domination and oppression of a female sex class, but then you have to take into account how both pornography and r**** help create that society. It becomes a chicken-and-egg scenario, and as long as we keep chasing our tails trying to find out for certain which one is the REAL root cause before we try to fix any of it, it won't get fixed.

Pornography is a documentation of r****. It is not a symptom of a sick society; it is a propaganda reinforcing the values and methods of the sick society. Maybe it was a symptom at one time, but now it has become an equal part of the problem.

How can we work for equality for women while ignoring or promoting(!) an industry that feeds off of inequality at every level? How can we claim we want equality, respect, and justice for women when we traffic with an industry that shows, documents, promotes, and glorifies the exact opposite of those things? Is being called a "c***" empowering? Respectful? Equal?

Is it possible for a white guy to call a black man a "n****r" (I tried, but I still couldn’t force myself to type that word out) and still not be racist? Is it possible to empower African Americans through black face and minstrel shows? Is it possible to work for the ACCEPTANCE and EQUALITY of African Americans while we still watch, support, and absorb the concepts displayed in minstrel shows?

Porn is a minstrel show, with women instead of African Americans (and there's a ton of racism in pornography as well, which we'll get to in another post). Minstrel shows didn't cause all racism, but will anyone say they didn't significantly contribute, in a causative manner, to a racist society?

Arguing about a "common cause" or "what came first" is ineffective and a distraction. Pornography is a cause of r****. Eliminate pornography, and we will eliminate a lot of r****. Sure, there are other problems to address, other things that condone, support, and contribute to a r**** culture, but pornography strengthens ALL of them. Pornography is the mouthpiece of the Patriarchy, through which all if its values are disseminated.

Until we begin to deal with that mouthpiece, until we stop allowing men to use women’s vaginas, breasts, and anus’s to speak their own agenda, our r**** rates will continue to climb. Until we figure out what to do with this megaphone called pornography, we will continue to see women suffer at the hands of it. And make no mistake about it, women ARE suffering.

Perhaps porn, as a medium, didn’t cause my rapes. Porn didn’t force my x husband to r**** me. What it DID do was reinforce that his desires were appropriate. That sex and r**** were interchangeable. That my pleasure and my pain were indistinguishable. It told him that I’d like it. It also gave him the boner he needed to do the job effectively. It was ammunition for him, showing him creative ways he could r**** me. It
Showed him that fisting was something that women liked. That I should like it.

Pornography was a reflection of a society that told him that these things are normal, acceptable and pleasurable. Until people stop being selfish and understand that there are other human beings, other lives outside of their own existence, we will never have freedom.

It doesn’t matter whether r**** was around first or whether porn was around first. I think that everyone can agree that r**** is a crime of power.

To that end, pornography is a medium of power.

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Kalith
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Postby Kalith on Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:22 pm

. wrote:
Kalith wrote:
If you want to argue i will...i got time, date not for another couple hours.

Porn works both ways, but in the end we make the concious decision to be affected by it.
i don't know who you mean by 'we', but there's statistics to show women are immediately negatviely affected by the sight of it. so it's nto really a conscious choice.

Take action or shutup. If you are taking action and nothing happens, sue or leave.
don't tell me to shut up. who do you think you are?

And gun are a useful tool, hey so is a knife/pencil/fists/or anything sharp or blunt or anything at all. Like i said, if there were no guns it would be the next best thing till we were all vegetables.
if it wasn't that it would be something else? worse pro-porn argument ever... completely turns a blind eye to the degradation of women, the effect that porn has on men, the message it sends out in society.


Me i am god duh.. No i am a 16 year old fed up with girls bitching about this. If i had a dime for everytime i felt unconfortable abecause of a girl looking/talking/whipering about men or how they look and how they would like to do S*** i would be a rich fella. The we is who ever takes offence to this...obviously you do. And no it ain't the worse arguement ever...if it weren't porn then it would be womens catelogues, or pictures of really slutty outfits. I mean if you work down to it, the material would just become less and less degrading but you would still take offence to it. Take for example me and my friends awwing over a picture of hilary duff [yes it was last year get over it], you'd say get a life. But there was nothing wrong with it, just a harmless photo. It is you who is making it a problem.
Last edited by Kalith on Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Guest on Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:32 pm

This means Heidi Mishkin has been lying all along. :?

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Postby Guest on Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:00 am

Porn is a harmless escape vehicle that keeps some of its users from acting out their fantasies in real life and thus prevents actual crimes.

Women involved in the porn industry are there voluntarily for their own personal financial benefit.

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Postby Guest on Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:11 pm

"Porn creates rapists by hardening them to a woman's protests, by hardening men to women as HUMANS first and women second. The values taught in porn are identical to the values of the rapist."

That ignores everything known about human sexuality. Aside from it's irrational stupidity, it's an argument that could be used to ban every book and movie every written or played.

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Postby Guest on Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:25 pm

Kalith wrote:
Me i am god duh.. No i am a 16 year old fed up with girls bitching about this. If i had a dime for everytime i felt unconfortable abecause of a girl looking/talking/whipering about men or how they look and how they would like to do S*** i would be a rich fella.
pretty S*** argument... somebody was objectifying your gender and making you feel bad, so it's ok to objectify someone else nad make them feel bad.

[quote] The we is who ever takes offence to this...obviously you do. And no it ain't the worse arguement ever...if it weren't porn then it would be womens catelogues, or pictures of really slutty outfits. I mean if you work down to it, the material would just become less and less degrading but you would still take offence to it. [/quote[ extortion. let me do this bad or i'll do some other bad.

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