A letter from Sister Meriam

Are the polititians doing a good job could you do better, debate your views with others
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Postby Guest on Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:19 pm

. wrote:
jojo22 wrote:
. wrote:A country full of good people witnessed their fellow citizens massacred on 9/11.

Comparing Bush to Hitler betrays an ignorant anti-American bigotry that is beneath contempt.

Please - it is anti-Bush bigotry at best - don't try and drag the rest of America into it. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number of Americans who think the way I do - so would that make them anti-American as well?

If their views are as baseless and clearly biased as yours and if they praise Saddam Hussein and support Muslim terrorists, it would make them anti-American.


I haven't seen any evidence that she supports terrorists of any religion nor that she praised Saddam. If you're going to attack someone it's usually a good idea to get to the root of what bothers you about their stance and attack that. Typically it's a view point that even the one you're attacking will agree with.

I believe she thinks Muslims have a right to self determinism which is stronger than the right to protect themselves the USA claims as the reason to get involved in the mid-east. I think she's wrong.

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Postby Guest on Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:05 pm

jojo22 wrote:
. wrote:America is not profiting fom the Iraq war, which as already cost hundreds of billions of dollars. America enjoyed a budget surplus before the war. The cost of the Iraq war has resulted in a budget deficit in excess of $300 bilion that dwarfs the "trade deals and contract work" to which you allude.


The American people - everyday people - are not likely to see much in return - it has cost them billions in taxpaying dollars, it has cost them life and limb and loved ones. However, there will be some profiting from the war - but those people already have a lot of money and will have never seen the front line.


Companies by law and precident are required to look after their shareholders interests above and beyond any social commitments. In a sense this makes a business, by definition immoral. However immoral is not the same thing as "stupid". Any company illegally tampering with politics for it's own profit has to weigh the probability of the company being dissolved and it's board imprisoned. It does happen of course, Enron being a good example, but by and large it's uncommon. Very very uncommon.

I find the thought that an American company, however large and powerful would start a war for profit extremely improbable. It is not the days of the India companies where governments handed over a war making charter to private companies. Today it would result in charges of Traitor for every executive at the company. Traitors are still punishable by death in the USA.

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Postby Guest on Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:45 am

. wrote:
. wrote:
jojo22 wrote:
. wrote:A country full of good people witnessed their fellow citizens massacred on 9/11.

Comparing Bush to Hitler betrays an ignorant anti-American bigotry that is beneath contempt.

Please - it is anti-Bush bigotry at best - don't try and drag the rest of America into it. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number of Americans who think the way I do - so would that make them anti-American as well?

If their views are as baseless and clearly biased as yours and if they praise Saddam Hussein and support Muslim terrorists, it would make them anti-American.

I haven't seen any evidence that she supports terrorists of any religion nor that she praised Saddam. If you're going to attack someone it's usually a good idea to get to the root of what bothers you about their stance and attack that. Typically it's a view point that even the one you're attacking will agree with.

I believe she thinks Muslims have a right to self determinism which is stronger than the right to protect themselves the USA claims as the reason to get involved in the mid-east. I think she's wrong.

In a different thread in this section, she made the following comment about Saddam Hussein:

In some respects Saddam was that strong leader but what he failed to do was allow that to transition into something that wasn't oppressive to certain factions in his country.

In that same thread, she called President George W. Bush "psychopathic" and compared Bush to Hitler. Only an apologist or a supporter of Saddam would praise Saddam, however guardedly, while smearing Bush with lies.

In the same other thread in this section, she equated Bush with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, as follows:

So far as the Iranian president is concerned, he has shown some smart political side-steps and counter-arguments to Bush which went in some way to counter-act the stereotype that he is an 'irrational terrorist muslim'. i.e. challenging him to a debate, saying he is open to discussion. Though I don't like everything he has said - he lets religion creep into his politics too much for my liking - but then he's not the first leader of a country to do that either. I mean, Bush has referred to God, appealed to the churches - by that basis alone how do they differ apart from our views of what is our religion vs. what is their religion? It's still religion being used in politics. Humans are just primed to see anything other than their beliefs as evil, or whatever. Personally, I like my politics served sans religion, irrespective of who is doing the talking - but then I am secular, so that is the position you would probably expect me to take. I did get the feeling that the wars in the middle east seemed to be a bit Muslims vs. the Christians again, like we were back in the years of the crusades, and if you mix that with scripture that needs to be 'fulfilled' (i.e. Jihad, holy wars, etc) then I feel downright panicked!

Ahmadinejad is the hand-picked tool of the Iranian fundamentalist Muslim theocratic dictatorship and is himself a militant religious extremist who refers to Islam as sufficient justification for war without more (i.e., jihad). Bush may be a devout Christian, but he has never invoked Christianity as a justification for war.

Ahmadinejad's government actively recruits, arms, trains, supports, finances and directs terrorists in Iraq, Lebanon and elsewhere in the Middle East and throughout the world.

Ahmadinejad is a rabidly anti-Semitic, virulently anti-American, demagogue.

Only an apologist for all the above or a supporter thereof would equate Bush with Ahmadinejad.

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Postby jojo22 on Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:23 pm

. wrote:
. wrote:
jojo22 wrote:
. wrote:A country full of good people witnessed their fellow citizens massacred on 9/11.

Comparing Bush to Hitler betrays an ignorant anti-American bigotry that is beneath contempt.

Please - it is anti-Bush bigotry at best - don't try and drag the rest of America into it. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number of Americans who think the way I do - so would that make them anti-American as well?

If their views are as baseless and clearly biased as yours and if they praise Saddam Hussein and support Muslim terrorists, it would make them anti-American.


I haven't seen any evidence that she supports terrorists of any religion nor that she praised Saddam. If you're going to attack someone it's usually a good idea to get to the root of what bothers you about their stance and attack that. Typically it's a view point that even the one you're attacking will agree with.

I believe she thinks Muslims have a right to self determinism which is stronger than the right to protect themselves the USA claims as the reason to get involved in the mid-east. I think she's wrong.


Thanks for this rational input. I'm a little confused by your last statement, I'm not sure if that is where I am coming from or not - it seems a little bit more black and white than I think I am coming from (perhaps I am trying also to figure things out during the process of discussing these issues - but it's not as simple as the above) - could you explain it a bit better?

As a more general position of where I am coming from, there are some points that I can make clear my stance on:
1/ I don't like the way people are de-humanized to justify treating them in less than humanistic ways - I would have a problem with that no matter the perpetrator or the people who suffer from it.
2/ I am less than enamoured with the extensive history of countries going into other countries, carving up their boundaries, taking their spoils and trying to impose their cultural values on others. I know that this pattern has repeated itself for probably as old a humankind is and it leaves me despairing of this part of human existence.
3/ While we carry on in these self-destructive ways we are ultimately taking actions that hurt ourselves, the planet we live on, etc.

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Postby Guest on Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:17 pm

jojo22 wrote:1/ I don't like the way people are de-humanized to justify treating them in less than humanistic ways - I would have a problem with that no matter the perpetrator or the people who suffer from it.


I can't argue that people should be treated as you would like to be treated yourself. However this is not a blanket of protection, rather it is a ethical and moral stance. Also that ideology of the "humanist" confers no more justification for (to use the language of ethics) "bad actors" to continue being bad actors, than any other form of religion does.

To go further, if you kill you have given up your right to life, if you support killers then you have given up your right to life, just as if you pulled the trigger yourself. I accept that this justifies Muslim extremists trying to kill me, because I support the troops in the mideast. I accept it fully, but also hope dearly for some rational agreement where we can both put down our weapons.

jojo22 wrote:2/ I am less than enamoured with the extensive history of countries going into other countries, carving up their boundaries, taking their spoils and trying to impose their cultural values on others. I know that this pattern has repeated itself for probably as old a humankind is and it leaves me despairing of this part of human existence.


But the USA has no history of doing it in this or the last century. Ths USA has a surprisingly long and successful history of building nations. We took . Germany and helped them create a modern Democratic nation that rivals and exceeds the UK itself, we took imperial Japan and built it into a Democratic powerhouse that frightens the USA at times with it's innovative managment. Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, and Kosovo are other examples. Before you point out the problems with each, bear in mind.. why the crap should the USA care and want to build partners that can rival and challenge it? It's a question we asked ourselves in Somalia and the answer was.. not worth it.. let them kill themselves.

jojo22 wrote:3/ While we carry on in these self-destructive ways we are ultimately taking actions that hurt ourselves, the planet we live on, etc.


Yes well, that's true. I think Democracies are the least wasteful government as they are the least likely to start unprovoked wars. I also think capitalism is the least wasteful economic system too. I don't think helping countries develop either system is wasteful, but I am starting to come around to the idea that the rest of the world can kill themselves off if they desire to do so. In fact I think the USA could bring it's cost of defense to 1% of it's GDP rather than 5% by abandoning it's outposts around the world. The fact that Japan, Germany, Korea and the rest of the world would rapidly become overtaken by communist countries that spend in excess of 4% and even over 25% of their GDP would cause the USA to eventually raise it's cost of defense to much over the current 4% might change my mind again. But you know it's soooo wasteful of American time and effort and blood to keep those military bases and protection forces around. Who cares? I think I do...

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Postby jojo22 on Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:02 am

Well if the most ominious climate change predictions are anything to go by (being that we will not stop climate change, simply slow it down a bit, it is a natural evolution of the planet), then before the end of this century the world will be able to sustain a population of 500 million, a very significant drop from the current population of 6.5 billion. That means the majority of the worlds population starving to death. That means that each of us has about a 7% chance of survival. All of these wars mean that humans are doing a pretty good job of 'culling' themselves, but it will be nothing compared to that which our 'host' (the planet) will take.

In this light, population ageing is not a problem - it's a blessing!

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Postby Guest on Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:27 pm

I'm keeping an open mind on climate change. There's strong evidence an enriched atmosphere will increase crops, in the presence of additional nutrients. In fact the latest studies I looked at showed crops (which use fertilizer) increased yields surprisingly beyond what would be expected in the presence just increased co2 or fertilizer. More food doesn't seem to be a problem.

However in the presence of just additional co2, crops didn't increase their yield, or absorb that much more co2 than crops without additional co2. This means we can't count on the current greenery in the world absorbing the excess co2. This means we'll have a longer wait for the world to decrease the co2 in the atmosphere, if it turns out it's actually a problem.

co2 being a problem for raising worldwide temperatures still remains open to debate... regardless of how many movies ex-presidential (like Gore) hopefuls create for the box-office.

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Postby Guest0209 on Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:13 pm

Jojo, Why is it that ANTI-Iraq war progressives, like yourself, can't accept the real lesson of 9/11? That there's a global Islamist movement bent on the destruction of the West?
And according to you, anyone who associated Islam with Terrorism is a bigot, a racist, a redneck and as you have most recently mentioned... biased!

No one has said that all Muslims are terrorists, that is something that you have fabricated to try to scrape up some support for your own argument by trying to come from a moral high-ground, but until somebody actually says that, it is completely irrelevant and transparent!

As I have mentioned before, we have defeated the Iraqi Army and we crushed the Former self-appointed Iraqi Government, but are now fighting 2 battles. We are battling to stop civil war, and we are fighting Jihadi's, hell bent on attacking the west. These 'jihadis' did not wake up one morning and decide to fight us, it is an idealogy of hate that has been brewing for a long long time, and both attacks on the WTC both during the Clinton and Bush administrations are evidence of that.

What Bush has done, and quite rightly, is continue to fight the fight against terrorism, but on their doorstep, and on our timetable!
Now For the progressive mind the source of the problem is Bush. But the real story is extremist elements throughout Islam. The dynamic driving the terrorists is Bush's aggressive tactics. So where else would you start and end but Iraq?

It begins with the enemy. Yes, there IS an enemy, though, of course, it offends polite company to admit this!!
The truth was summarised in the US 9/11 commission report (often at odds with Bush) when it said: "The enemy is not just terrorism, some generic evil. The catastrophic threat at this moment in history is more specific. It is the threat posed by Islamist terrorism, especially the al-Qaeda networks, its affiliates and its ideology."

YOU make the mistake in thinking that Al Qeada is a small group of extremists who marely plan and carry out the odd terrorist attack, but you couldn't be more further from the truth.
YOU make the mistake in thinking that because the majority of Muslims are not terrorists, that there should not be a 'cloud' over Islam. This is incorrect!
A good analogy to use would be cancer in the human body. 99% of the human body could be in perfect health, but that cancerous 1% is enough to do terminal, unrepairable damage if not diagnosed and treated in the initial stages. If you leave the cancer alone, it will spread, infect and consume. To rid a person of cancer, their whole body must undergo examination and treatment. Ignoring the problem will NOT make it go away.

You are also mistaken in thinking that all muslims should not be under a 'cloud' of suspicion because it is not their problem. This is incorrect.
The extremists have 'hijacked' Islam, and are successfully spreading their hate filled idealogy around Islamic countries, usually by force or finance by other well funded extremist elements/governments.
It IS the responsibilty of the average peaceful muslim moderates to ensure that the correct message is being spread, that other religions and cultures are respected, and that any extreme elements in their 'chapters' are dealt with internally, instead of letting things get to the stage where 'uncle sam' has to deal with it.

I have only briefly touched on something I could write about for hours on end. Hopefully you will stop joining those that make the 'west' Islam's scapegoat, and start pointing the finger in the right direction instead of blaming everything on Bush.

Might also help you to learn about terrorism throughout modern history, and the terrorist attacks that took place long before Bush was ever in power!

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Postby jojo22 on Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:22 am

Well, if you step back from this a bit and try and look at what I've said and what you've said objectively, then I think it would be fair call to say that we both have subjective elements in our discussions and that subjectivity may lead to hypocrisy without realising it. That's all I have to say.

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Postby guest0209 on Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:10 pm

jojo22 wrote:subjectivity may lead to hypocrisy without realising it. That's all I have to say.


Where is my 'hypocrisy'?

You posted a letter from a Sister who ends her rant with "for us if stay, God will surely punish you and your country and you will lose your limbs, your life and also eventually your souls, your families and you will end us with nightmares and sickness from the Depleted Uranium and your own sense of guilt for having killed Iraqis for the devil himself, George W. Bush — may he be damned unto hell itself and burn eternally"

You have suggested that her letter represents a sentiment among multiple factions... we call them 'extremists'.
So to counter your letter of extremist propaganda, I will do what you have failed to do, and post a letter from the leadership of Iraq.
No doubt, you will claim that Bush's speech writers spent all night on it, instead of taking the thoughts and opinions as being that of the Author, the President of Iraq.

It is quite long:

Iraq, Sept. 22, 2006 — Iraqi President Jalal Talabani traveled to New York this week for the opening of the 61st session of the United Nations General Assembly. In a letter to the people of the United States, Talabani describes Iraq’s security situation, challenges and progress, and his country’s special relationship with the U.S.

“Dear Americans,

As I am visiting the United States for the second time representing free and democratic Iraq, I felt it my duty to give you an update on what has been achieved in Iraq over the past year and on the challenges that lie ahead.

The first thing I would like to convey is the gratitude of all Iraqis, who are fighting for a democratic government and a civil society, to the Americans. Without your commitment, our struggle against despotism could not have made the progress that we have achieved. No expression of thanks could be enough for those who lost loved ones in Iraq. We feel your pain, we honor your sacrifice and we will never forget you. To those of you who have family and friends in Iraq today, we say: Your sons and daughters are helping us through a historic transition. We will always remember the enormous sacrifice that America is making for Iraq.

Thanks to the United States, we are transforming Iraq from a country that was ruled by fear, repression and dictatorship into a country that is ruled by democracy and has the values of equality, tolerance, human rights and the rule of law at its heart.

April 9, 2003, the day of liberation, heralded a new era in the history of Iraq and the region. That day triggered a sequence of events that laid the foundation of a modern Iraq that is at peace with itself and the world. All segments of Iraqi society have benefited from liberation.

Under Saddam Hussein, the majority of the Sunni Arabs of Iraq were marginalized; Saddam and his gang were ruling in the name of this community. But in reality, the Sunni Arabs never had the chance to choose their representatives democratically and have a say about their future. Today, they have 58 deputies in Parliament, a vice president, a deputy prime minister and a speaker of Parliament; all were elected by the people of Iraq.

The Shia majority of Iraq was for decades oppressed and discriminated against. They did not even have the right to practice their religious ceremonies. Now, they are equal citizens and hold key posts in government and parliament through their democratically elected representatives.

Kurds were second-class citizens. They suffered from genocide and chemical bombardment; now they are equal members of Iraqi society and active participants in the running of their country, Iraq. The same applies to the Turkomens, Assyrians and other groups of Iraqi society.

Iraq finally has an elected and representative government, a huge contrast to the authority of a vicious tyrant. In other words, Iraq is no longer the property of a gang that ruled by fear and repression. Every Iraqi today feels they have a stake in the new Iraq.

With the regime of Saddam gone, the countries of the Middle East no longer worry about the threat of new adventures by Saddam and his army across Iraq's international borders.

Every time that I visit the United States, I am convinced anew of the virtues and health of the American idea of government, and of the generosity of its people.

I was here around the same time last year. Here is what has happened between then and now, although I must say that I do not think that our situation can be understood simply by following the latest news. A much broader view of Iraq must be taken. For this, I will start with the economy.

The economic conditions for most Iraqis have improved. The economy was liberated from the control of the state and we are now taking the first steps in creating a vibrant private sector. Thanks to our independent businesspeople, our market places are bustling despite the unsettled security situation. A new investment law is before our Parliament. It will further invigorate our private sector, streamline the procedures for starting a new business, and open the country to greater foreign participation and investment. Salaries of government employees were raised 100 times or more. A policeman under Saddam received $2 to $3 dollars a month. Now a policeman is paid at least $200 a month.

The financial and economic boom is mostly noticed in the safer parts of Iraq. The city of Sulaymaniyah in Iraqi Kurdistan region now has more than 2,000 millionaires. Before liberation, the city had 12.

Politically, we had an eventful year. For the first time in Iraq's history, we ratified a constitution that enshrines many of the democratic values of human rights, equality, rule of law and good government. After three historic ballots that remain landmarks in the history of the Middle East, we now have a government that arises out of the people, instead of over the people, to use the words of a great American patriot, Thomas Paine.

Unlike the previous election, last December more people voted - 10.5 million - and a more representative parliament and a national unity government are now in place. Taking part in the national election and referendum on the constitution were the first steps in our national reconciliation efforts; we opted for the ballots and not the bullets to resolve our differences.

We consolidated this by the National Reconciliation Plan of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. The plan aims at bringing into the political process all elements of the Iraqi political spectrum that condemn terror and violence.

In the period between the election and the formation of the national unity government, the political blocs - which formed the government later - agreed on the political program for the government and agreed on forming the Political Council for National Security.

An important event that marked the new Iraq over the past year is the trial of Saddam Hussein and his aides for the crimes that were committed against the people of Iraq. We offered him the justice that he denied Iraqis for decades. The trials, the testimonies of the witnesses and those of the defendants are stark reminders and indications of what Iraq was like in the past and what the new Iraq is about.

Through the constitution and other legal means, we are redefining the foundations that Iraq was built on and are rebuilding what the country's bloody past has destroyed. We have no choice but to succeed. Our enemy attempts to destroy and disrupt any part of the political process, not because they disagree with the tenets of the Iraqi constitution, but because they do not want a constitution.

This contingent of international terrorists and the supporters and beneficiaries of the old regime - the devotees of Saddam Hussein - constitute the driving force of our enemy.They attempt to turn Iraqis against each other, and take Iraq back to its brutal and bloody past. Their tactics of suicide bombings and beheadings make it obvious that they mean to govern by inciting terror and fear, just as Saddam did.

Although portions of Iraq are already safe and secure, certain parts are still coming under attack from the vicious, bloodthirsty enemy. With the support of the citizens of Baghdad, the government started its Baghdad Security Plan. This plan is already showing signs of success, with a marked drop in the reported incidents of violence over the last month.

The battle in Iraq today is not between the various communities. Their elected representatives have agreed on a government of national unity and on national reconciliation. Nor is it a battle between civilizations, as some have seen it. It is a war "about civilization" as Prime Minister Tony Blair has phrased it so well - the conflict is between those who believe in having a civilization and those who don't believe in having one at all.

As you no doubt already understand, we are fighting a terribly difficult war in Iraq. We are doing everything within our power to protect our people from this clear form of fascism that seduces them into civil war. The calculated crime of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and his henchmen in bombing the Shrine of Samarra, one of Iraq's religious and cultural treasures, is a prime example of their agenda. They wanted to slide the country into civil war. Thanks to the presence of the U.S. forces in Iraq and the wisdom of my colleagues in the leadership of Iraq, that plan was thwarted and the short spate of violence was contained.

I want to be frank here. In order to rid Iraq of the constant threat of violence, we still need your help. As long as we are determent to outlast and outsmart our enemy, we shall reach our common goals.

Iraq is slowly gaining the ability to fight this war with its own soldiers, evidenced recently by the relinquishing of complete control of coalition forces to the Iraqi government. The coalition now employs more soldiers from Iraq than any other nation. Slowly but surely, Iraq will be able to protect itself on its own.

The stakes of Iraq are enormous, world-shifting even. This is why our country should be a point of concern for every democratic country of the world. I can assure you that the immediate departure of coalition forces would only unleash tensions between different communities, the prospect of a safe Iraq wou ld be completely lost, and the previous descriptions of a civil war would seem insufficient and tame compared to the bloodshed of an Iraq that loses its international support.

And although I cannot promise when or how the American presence will completely end in Iraq, I can promise that American soldiers do not fight in vain. We in Iraq recognize that an incredible amount of American resources have been offered to us. And we understand that many Americans are frustrated with the course of the war, and we understand that doubt naturally coincides with difficulty. I realize that many Americans were apprehensive about the decision to go to war. But I ask that you put this behind you in favor of supporting a democratic and free Iraq, and a future for Iraqis that excludes the threat of violence and extremism. I ask that you consider what the terms of failure in Iraq would actually look like, and what they would mean for Iraq, the United States and the international community.

I would venture to say that the interest of Iraq and the United States are one in this matter. The United States carries a heavy responsibility in helping us. As complicated as the relationship may be, America and Iraq are now siblings in the world.”

Jalal Talabani, President of Iraq


No doubt there is government propaganda involved, but unlike your letter, it is more to rally support for a tough campain that is constantly copping flack from every organisation seeking to benefit from a left wing US government.

I believe that your letter has been written to make excuses for extremism, suicide bombing and the likes. How can you not see that?

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Postby jojo22 on Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:56 am

Well, first of all, interesting letter and yeah, highly unlikely that it hasn't had some Bush Admin spit'n'polish to finish it off.

The letter from Sister Meriam I came across when looking at pictures of what is going on in Iraq. It touched my heart strings, particularly in light of the images of the human cost of war I had just witnessed, so I posted it.

So if a more balanced article is what you are looking for, rather than the 'emotional heart strings' one I posted, or the one you posted, how about this one? It goes further than a president's presentation or a single woman's opinion:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15496.htm

70% Of Iraqi's Want U.S. Occupation Troops Withdrawn Within A Year
By Nancy A. Youssef


11/04/06 "McClatchy Newspapers" --- - BAGHDAD, Iraq - Ask an Iraqi what American troops are fighting for in Iraq, and the answer likely will be: not for me.

No matter the politics of the respondent, recent interviews with 19 Iraqis, both Shiite and Sunni Muslims, found almost no one who thought the Americans were fighting for them. Only ethnic Kurds, who have established a largely autonomous region in Iraq's north, were willing to say that American troops serve their interests.

Public opinion surveys over the years have shown growing Iraqi discontent with the American presence. The most recent, released in September by WorldPublicOpinion.org, a group affiliated with the University of Maryland's School of Public Policy, found that seven of 10 Iraqis want U.S.-led forces to withdraw within a year. In the same survey, 78 percent said the U.S. presence provokes more conflict than it prevents; 84 percent said they had little or no confidence in the U.S military.

But the unwillingness of Iraqis to say that the Americans were fighting specifically for them underscores how confusing U.S. policy has become in Iraq's complicated political environment of competing sects, ethnic groups, tribes, militias, interest groups and leaders.

"The Americans were initially fighting al-Qaeda and terrorism, but then the problem turned into sectarian violence, and they found themselves stuck in the middle," said Mahmoud Othman, a Kurdish parliament member who's sympathetic to the difficulty of the American position.

Most Iraqis interviewed were much harsher.

"America is fighting for America's economic interests," said Ali Salih, 46, a government worker from Tikrit, Saddam Hussein's hometown. "It didn't come to fight terrorism or spread democracy or find weapons of mass destruction. All that was just a cover."

If Tuesday's midterm elections in the United States are in part a referendum on U.S. policy here, Iraqi confusion over whose side America is on is the election's mirror image.

Where American forces were once focused on defeating a stubborn Sunni insurgency with ties to al-Qaeda and the remnants of Saddam's Baath Party, U.S. troops now are also targeting Shiite militias, whose popularity is derived, in part, from their opposition to the Sunni insurgency.

Where Americans once argued that they were fighting for Iraqis' right to elect a government, U.S. officials now argue that the elected Shiite government must protect the rights of the Sunni minority.

While American officials say they're fighting for the Iraqi government, the prime minister of that government, Nouri al-Maliki, a Shiite, has publicly denounced U.S. policies, criticizing everything from American military tactics to estimates of when Iraqis can take control of their own security.

On Tuesday, Maliki ordered U.S. troops to take down barricades set up in Baghdad in the search for a kidnapped American soldier. Maliki's primary political backers include fiery cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, who rose to prominence because he virulently opposes the American presence. Twice in 2004, Sadr's Mahdi Army militia fought major offensives against the Americans.

American officials say they've tried to stay evenhanded in their Iraq dealings. They say their goal is to encourage the dominant Shiite political parties to open their government to minority parties.

"We keep introducing the idea of a transparent government, of a free and open society," said Col. Nelson McCouch, the spokesman for Gen. George Casey, the top U.S. military commander in Iraq. "And we have positive instances. They are moving in the right direction, but it's not going to happen overnight."

But the evenhandedness has won the U.S. few friends because each side is demanding more.

Ali Adeeb, a top member of Maliki's Dawa Party, accused the U.S. of having thrown in with Sunni insurgents.

"There's a substantial change in the way Americans think," he said. "They used to target Baathists and infidels, but now they are targeting the militias. It's as though they forgot about the Baathists. There is cooperation between the American leaders and the terrorists."

Americans deny that, noting that the United States lost more soldiers in the past month to fights with Sunni insurgents in Anbar province than to battles with Shiite militias; 105 American service members died in Iraq in October, one of the war's highest monthly death tolls.

Sunni politicians criticize the United States for not having stopped the sectarian violence, which has worsened each month since the Feb. 22 bombing of a Shiite shrine in Samarra.

"They're not doing enough to stop the militias," said Alaa Makki, a Sunni parliament member of parliament. "Only authorized government forces should be armed."

American officials acknowledge privately that their policy makes it difficult to say whose side the United States is on. "Something that represents everyone ultimately represents no one," said one State Department official who asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of Iraq policy.

With just days to go before midterm elections in the United States, where surveys show Iraq is the No. 1 issue, no American official was willing to be quoted being critical of Iraq policy. U.S. statements in recent days have been aimed primarily at playing down the public differences that Maliki's pronouncements have highlighted.

On Thursday, the chief U.S. military spokesman in Iraq, Army Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, dismissed the feud as a natural consequence of trying to stand up the Iraqi government. "We are in a tremendous state of transition," Caldwell said.

But Maliki's spokesman, Ali Dabbaugh, made it clear that U.S. and Iraqi interests aren't always the same.

"When the U.S. started the invasion of Iraq, it had some strategic goals according to its own interests," he said. "Now, we cooperate according to our own interests. And we deal with the differences in a way that serves the best interests of both of our countries."

Some Iraqis are still willing to defend the American position.

Saad al-Janabi, a member of the secular party led by Ayad Allawi, whom U.S. officials picked to lead the first interim Iraqi government in 2004, said the United States is fighting for a liberal democracy, one where the minority has a voice.

"They don't want to leave without fixing the country," Janabi said. "They want to reach to the point where they can try again to rebuild the country in a liberal, democratic way."

But that runs up against the reality that Iraqis, in their first democratic election in nearly a century, voted heavily for religious Shiite slates. Those slates captured 128 seats in parliament, just 10 shy of a majority.

It's against that panorama that Iraqis judge the U.S. presence.

Only in the town of Sulaimaniyah in the Kurdish north did any Iraqis interviewed say anything positive about the American presence.

"The multinational forces' aim is establishing stability in Iraq," said Zanko Ahmed, a Kurd who called American troops "friendly forces." He contrasted his view with that of Arab Iraqis: "They think the coalition forces are at the core of their problems."

That view was evident in interviews with Arab Iraqis in Baghdad, Sunni-dominated Tikrit, and the Shiite strongholds of Najaf and Basra. No one voiced appreciation for American efforts. Even those who said they expected the Americans to stay until Iraq is calmed expressed suspicion of U.S. motives.

"The Americans made many mistakes in Iraq, and today they are thinking of leaving, but will not do so until they fix the situation," said Sameer Sami Luay, 37, a day worker in Najaf. "But they are not doing this for the sake of the Iraqis, but for their own political sake and their place in the Middle East. They want to make Iraq an example to justify attacking another country."

Some were unabashed in their cynicism. "I don't think they've crossed seas and sustained all the losses to replace Saddam's regime with Shiite or Sunni parties," said Saleh Ahmed, a 43-year-old Shiite from Karbala. "They came to implement an Israeli scheme in the Arab region, trying to halt the Islamic tide coming from Iran."

Others saw only an America searching for economic gain. "America came to fight for the oil because the American administration officials who pushed for this war have their own oil companies," said Seif Mohammed, 30, an engineer in Tikrit.

Hamed Hassan Jihad, 41, of Najaf, said America's refusal to leave when it's only made things worse proved that the U.S. had other motives. "They are staying for their own benefit," he said. "They want to occupy us."

If the Iraqis don't believe the United States is fighting for them, there's also confusion among American soldiers. Asked via e-mail by a McClatchy Newspapers reporter for whom he was fighting, one captain with the 172nd Stryker Brigade acknowledged that he didn't know and expressed a thought often heard from U.S. soldiers here.

"I don't know anymore," he wrote. "I just want to go home."

McClatchy Newspaper special correspondents in Baghdad, Tikrit, Sulaimaniyah, Najaf and Basra contributed to this report.

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Postby jojo22 on Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:05 am

additional point: do you think the above article should be given it's own thread instead of being buried under this one?

Actually, I was wondering whether it would be an interesting exercise to compare the recommendations of the Iraq Study Group (ISG) against the (granted - imperfect, not the complete picture) summation of popular opinion within relevant factions in Iraq alluded to in the above article. Ergo, if we are to take that this article represents a relatively accurate picture of relevant public opinion (Shiite, Shia, Kurd, terrorist factions, and a smattering of American military views), are the various recommendations (some or part of them) made by the ISG likely to be successful in light of public sentiment?

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Postby jojo22 on Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:36 am

Guest0209 wrote:Jojo, Why is it that ANTI-Iraq war progressives, like yourself, can't accept the real lesson of 9/11? That there's a global Islamist movement bent on the destruction of the West?
And according to you, anyone who associated Islam with Terrorism is a bigot, a racist, a redneck and as you have most recently mentioned... biased!


What I would appreciate you realising is that I didn't start throwing the word bigot around, or racist, but I did have that thrown at me when my issue was with Bush, not generalizable to a whole people - I have tried not to make personal attacks but it becomes very tempting when you receive them.

A second issue I would like you to consider is that it appears that there are more than one person posting their opinions under guest, and one such guest sent me a private message to make it clear what was his opinion and which belonged to others - so I have only just been realising I am conversing with a variety of people. What would be helpful to me is if people differentiate themselves in some way - I see you have done this with Guest0209. I'm not asking people to register, but it would be helpful for me to focus my responses better if those that are actively and on an ongoing basis debating with me gave me some form of reference to differentiate them.

For example, there is an individual with an MBA - how do I know when I am clearly discussing something with them?

There is an individual with a background in law, I've been given a frame of reference for knowing who they are.

What is my frame of reference for you Guest0209? Are you one of the above people or do you have a different level of background experience that you refer to?

If people could clearly lay this out for me, then I can't mix up one person for another and make comments where one person is assumed to be responsible for anothers comments. Knowing a little about your disciplines or background experience will also help me to know which questions to ask of who.

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Postby jojo22 on Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:03 pm

Thank you for clarifying your position as regards to me.

Never been called a 'progressive liberal' before. Political anarchist? Does that mean that anyone who is not for the incumbent US president is a political anarchist? Must be a lot of us around then - oh well, whatever.

Moving right along.

I doubt there is little that can be done to win hearts and minds regardless, the damage has already been done and will not soon be forgotten. Any thought to the contrary is fruitless optimism. The de-stabilization of Iraq created a breeding ground for terrorism - it created what the Bush admin was aiming to eradicate - go figure. A whole new breed of people will attack not because they believe or follow Osama Bin Laden and his ilk but because someone in their family was killed and they are heartbroken and bent on revenge.

My sympathies for arab and muslim peoples comes from my own experiences.

I dated a Palestinian guy for 5 months when I was in London, and through him got to know other palestinians, an Iraqi, a Jordanian, a Morrocan, a Lebanese family, an Egyptian couple. Not all of them were muslim either - the Jordanian and Morrocan were Christian. They were just a network of really good friends and they treated me really well - better than anyone else I got to know in London. I enjoyed learning about their culture, trying their food, their enthusiam for life, their customs. Such generous people. My partner didn't go into any detail but he said 'oh, you would cry if you knew what has happened to my people'.

He was shut out of his own country for years. There was a time when Palestinians that left were refused re-entry (I don't know how it was justified). I mean, that's like someone who comes over to stay with you and then when you are out they change the locks and say 'Gee I like it here, but no room for you anymore - sorry'. It's not hard to understand why the Palestinians feel raw. When I was back in NZ and going to Uni, I had a young Jewish guy - who was not raised there but had visited Jerusalem recently, approach me and ask if he could take a copy of my notes because he had missed the class. 'No problem' I said, and I went with him to the photocopiers in the library and waited while he photocopied. We chatted and he told me about how he had enjoyed going and visiting Jerusalem and I mentioned that I had dated a Palestinian guy and had the opportunity to go and see Jerusalem with him but my folks didn't want me to go because they were afraid it would be dangerous. Well, saying I had dated a Palestinian went down like a lead balloon, he took my notes that he had copied and walked straight off, not even thanking me, even though I had gone out of my way for him. That association obviously left me considered as something less than dirt. Zero tolerance.

Or the Christian Iraqi couple who lived in the flat below me years ago in NZ. They left Iraq in the mid 1990's because Saddam had all the Christians living in a gated city and wanted a freer life for their little boy. I was a full on party girl at the time, must have kept them awake with my partying at times. The Morman boys, Chad and Chad (no kidding) doing their witness stint in NZ - who hailed from Utah and Alaska), used to come over for meals I would make them and tell, laughing as they did, about how the Iraqi couple said 'that crazy girl!'. I liked those Morman boys, and they really liked coming to see their neighbour, cos I told them - if you want me to feed you then don't tell me your name is elder this or that, use your first name - you're not witnessing with me - when you come here you can just be yourselves - and they enjoyed that.

I digress. Still, even though I must have been trying for the Iraqi couple, the wife would often bring me up stuffed vegetables and grape vines (because she had 'cooked too much') and were generally some of the nicest neighbours I ever had. I wonder if they considered going back to Iraq after Saddam fell? I hope they didn't - would hate to think they were one of the many peoples killed by mistake at a checkpoint or otherwise harmed by the insurgency going on.

Or my current Somalian and muslim friend, a refugee to NZ, who I have the most wonderful discussions with, wonderful because even though we talk about very sad topics and about the many horrible situations she has lived through that I could never fathom we find some correlations between life experiences that (though very different in magnitude) left us with similar feelings, motivations and the resilience and finally success that grew out of that - and we give each other strength. I think she's wonderful and am doing everything I can to help her in her success.

So here are the people from the middle east and africa that I have gotten to know and I don't have a bad word to say about any of them - they are just good people. Of the muslims, not one of them tried to 'convert' me to Islam - they were live and let live (although they do think 'ewww, how could you' when I eat bacon or some such) :lol:

And in the current climate of fear, I know that anyone of them - if they found themselves in a 'paranoid' environment - could find themselves killed, abused, wrongfully imprisoned without due process, hassled at an airport, whichever, because of the clothes they wear or their physical appearance. And I am left thinking 'if they are good people' then they are just a handful of a larger group of good people, good people that are suffering terribly.

I mean people qualify themselves by talking about the 'muslim extremists', and how they have to be dealt with - but how do you tell an extremist from a non-extremist? Very hard unless they are pointing a gun at you, and so many many innocent (and wonderfully warm) people have been killed - collatoral damage :? It makes my heart break to hear about or see images of the many young children, Iraqi, Lebanese, Palestinian, who were just emerging into this world, dreaming of their future, taken so savagely from this earth.

Why have chemical weapons been used against the Iraqi people by the American military when the use of chemical weapons by Saddam was so abhorred? I know there is a debate about whether white phosphorous is a chemical weapon - that it might only be categorized as such if deliberately used against civilians. There is pictorial evidence of children's dead bodies eaten away by the stuff - but it's not chemical because it was not 'deliberate'? It's only chemical if it is - well that's an interesting distinction!?!?! Either it's a chemical or it's not FFS!

And why do I dislike Bush so much? So many decisions to alter laws to suit his ends. My dislike of Bush was initially fueled by my American husbands sister, who came to visit back in 2003 and rampantly dislikes the man, although I had heard things that alarmed me prior to this. A senior American mentor of mine, who dollars to doughnuts would be a Republican by upbringing and past voting in the States commented to me that 'if I was still in the States now, I would probably just go along with everything and not question it, but seeing things from an outside perspective I have a very different view'. And I guess that is the crux of it too, seeing things from the outside looking on gives you a different perspective, and perhaps that perspective is more about 'net effects' than it is about the propaganda poured over those effects. And in viewing these net effects you think 'hmmm, things I am hearing are not adding up to what I am seeing' and so you wonder 'what are the real motivations here, how have things really happened'?

There is one thing that I feel quite sure of, putting aside all of the currently known 'facts' or CT's that are running around. That is that there are further irrefutable 'facts' that will come to light over time and a number of them will not reflect well on Bush at all. In the end, truth emerges. In hindsight we fully grasp the consequences of actions that we make more palatable in the present.

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Postby Pere Ubu on Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:09 pm

Firstly, historical "net effects" are not evidenced by anecdotal personal experiences.

You bemoan the hypothetical possibility that your Muslim and Arab friends ". . . if they found themselves in a 'paranoid' environment - could find themselves killed, abused, wrongfully imprisoned without due process, hassled at an airport, whichever, because of the clothes they wear or their physical appearance." The only one of your hypothetical scenarios that has any basis in reality is "being hassled at an airport" -- all the other scenarios are factually unfounded with respect to the United States. As for Arabs and Muslims, "being hassled at an airport" is the unfortunate price one pays when members of that person's religion or ethnicity commit heinous terrorism and massacre thousands of innocent people.

I note that your explanation of why you "dislike Bush so much" is devoid of reference to any specific act or omission by Bush. Evidently, your opinion of Bush is based on the opinions of your American sister in law and your "senior American mentor."

During his Presidency, Ronald Reagan was also called a "cowboy" with a "cavalier" foreign policy and portrayed as stupid in the European and American media (83% of American journalists vote Democrat). History has forced Reagan's detractors to begrudgingly credit Reagan for winning the Cold War and bringing about the dissolution of the Soviet Union. That's why I lend no credence to how Bush or any Republican President is portrayed by the same media.

Meanwhile, it turns out that while al Qaeda was committing terrorist bombings against the World Trade Center, American embassies in Africa, an American warship in Yemen and apartment buildings housing Americans in Saudi Arabia, and while al Qaeda was proceeding apace with its plans for 9/11, sex addict Bill Clinton -- the darling of Europeans and the American left who was portrayed by the European and American media as a great President and an intellectual -- was more interested in having the Secret Service illegally eavesdropping on Princess Diana's phone sex with her boyfriend. See http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1968664,00.html

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