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Are the polititians doing a good job could you do better, debate your views with others
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Postby other guest on Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:02 pm

jojo22 wrote:Cripes - I had never heard about these rape claims before - from your description he wasn't just a bit of a sex addict, but a sexual predator.

My comments about the naunces of deciding to stay in a relationship were more about Hillary than Clinton.

Please clarify something for me - one of the things that came out of Clinton's interview with one of the Fox News guys was that the one thing he was derided for (by the republicans) when he was in presidency was going on and on about Osama Bin Laden - he claims that no-one took him seriously and he could not get a mandate to take viable action against Osama but that he left detailed plans for going after the guy before he left office. This seems to be quite different from your take on things.


Those that were in the intelligence community at the time are baffled by Clinton's claim to a plan for terrorism and Bin Laden in particular. If Clinton had a plan he didn't communicate it until after 9/11. This is a matter of record.

That's not to say there isn't some truth that the Republicians believed he was using Bin Ladin, and other issues, as a way to deflect attention from his sexual problems. Bin Ladin had been a minor figure for the USA's intelligence for a very long time, according to my reading. However if Bin Ladin was the problem Clinton claimed (only after 9/11 though) him to be, Clinton had several chances which he did not use to take care of the matter during his term in office.

I think the fact is - No one really expected 9/11 so no one could have predicted Bin Ladin would be in charge of it.

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Postby jojo22 on Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:47 am

other guest wrote:
jojo22 wrote:Cripes - I had never heard about these rape claims before - from your description he wasn't just a bit of a sex addict, but a sexual predator.

My comments about the naunces of deciding to stay in a relationship were more about Hillary than Clinton.

Please clarify something for me - one of the things that came out of Clinton's interview with one of the Fox News guys was that the one thing he was derided for (by the republicans) when he was in presidency was going on and on about Osama Bin Laden - he claims that no-one took him seriously and he could not get a mandate to take viable action against Osama but that he left detailed plans for going after the guy before he left office. This seems to be quite different from your take on things.


Those that were in the intelligence community at the time are baffled by Clinton's claim to a plan for terrorism and Bin Laden in particular. If Clinton had a plan he didn't communicate it until after 9/11. This is a matter of record.

That's not to say there isn't some truth that the Republicians believed he was using Bin Ladin, and other issues, as a way to deflect attention from his sexual problems. Bin Ladin had been a minor figure for the USA's intelligence for a very long time, according to my reading. However if Bin Ladin was the problem Clinton claimed (only after 9/11 though) him to be, Clinton had several chances which he did not use to take care of the matter during his term in office.

I think the fact is - No one really expected 9/11 so no one could have predicted Bin Ladin would be in charge of it.


Some also argued that the Republicans brought up and kept feeding all of the affair stuff in order to get rid of Clinton, reduce his credibility and generally distract him from more important matters. Politics involves a lot of dirty pool - would you say there is truth to this?

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Postby Guest on Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:50 am

Clinton's "bimbo eruptions" pre-dated his presidency.

Clinton's female accusers were all Democrat Clinton supporters.

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Postby jojo22 on Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:08 am

. wrote:Clinton's "bimbo eruptions" pre-dated his presidency.

Clinton's female accusers were all Democrat Clinton supporters.


So there were already public accusations prior to him being elected president? How did that not come up?

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Postby Guest on Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:33 am

jojo22 wrote:
. wrote:Clinton's "bimbo eruptions" pre-dated his presidency.

Clinton's female accusers were all Democrat Clinton supporters.


So there were already public accusations prior to him being elected president? How did that not come up?

It did.

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Postby jojo22 on Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:11 pm

skanky

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Postby Guest on Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:46 pm

jojo22 wrote:Some also argued that the Republicans brought up and kept feeding all of the affair stuff in order to get rid of Clinton, reduce his credibility and generally distract him from more important matters. Politics involves a lot of dirty pool - would you say there is truth to this?


A sitting President having an affair isn't bad, many did so. A sitting President having sex with a movie star might make the average person a bit jealous.

A sitting President having sex with ugly women he's in a position of power over, is disgusting to the average person.

Of course the Republicans used it to discredit him. He lied under oath don't forget. A sitting President lied to the country. He could have said "No comment gentlemen, I am married and I find this intrusion into my private affairs both undignified for you august gentlemen to ask and beneath the dignity of the office of the President of the USA to answer."

The last President to lie to the nation would have been tossed out if he hadn't rightly resigned for the disgrace he brought to the office.

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Postby jojo22 on Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:51 am

. wrote:"No comment gentlemen, I am married and I find this intrusion into my private affairs both undignified for you august gentlemen to ask and beneath the dignity of the office of the President of the USA to answer."


Yeeehhaaaaarrrr :clap:

Now what's the bet Bill would read that and think 'damn, I wish I had this person to write my replies back then?

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Postby Guest on Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:06 am

jojo22 wrote:
. wrote:"No comment gentlemen, I am married and I find this intrusion into my private affairs both undignified for you august gentlemen to ask and beneath the dignity of the office of the President of the USA to answer."

Yeeehhaaaaarrrr :clap:

Now what's the bet Bill would read that and think 'damn, I wish I had this person to write my replies back then?

During the 1992 presidential campaign, Clinton's staff formulated a clever plan to handle questions about Bill's "bimbo eruptions." Whenever Bill sat for an interview where such questions were likely to be asked, Hillary sat next to Bill during the entire interview. When the questions were asked, Hillary would become visibly uncomfortable. Bill would then respond that these were "personal matters" which had been resolved between the couple or with similar deflections designed to make the interviewer look like an overreaching scandal-monger. Enough information was not yet known for specific questions about specific women, so Bill never was forced to explicitly admit or deny with specificity. The plan worked brilliantly.

Had Bill Clinton admitted his affair with 21 year-old intern Monica Lewinsky, even as a Republican who loathed Clinton, I would have opposed the inquisition that ensued. Indeed, no inquisition would have ensued because the American people would have forgiven Clinton.

As I stated previously, it was not Clinton’s adultery that in my view rendered him unfit to be President (though I abhor adultery).

Clinton initially displayed abysmally poor judgment in bedding Lewinsky whilst facing a sexual harassment lawsuit by former Arkansas state employee Paula Jones. He knew his sexual exploits were under intense media scrutiny, yet he recklessly risked further scandal. But even this, in my view, did not render Clinton unfit to lead.

When allegations about his affair with Lewinsky became public, Clinton resorted to a strategy that never failed in the past: (1) lie and deny; (2) frame it as “he said, she said”; and, (3) then have his formidable public relations apparatus methodically destroy the accuser’s character and credibility with scurrilous leaks to the press – truth be damned. This was the first action that in my view implicated Clinton’s fitness to lead.

Until Lewinsky, Clinton’s accusers were provincial Southern “white trash” women of limited means and modest intelligence who had at least a semblance of a skeleton on which to base a character assassination.

Lewinsky was cut from different cloth. She was the daughter of a prominent Los Angeles doctor. She grew up in a wealthy, worldly, even jaded, environment. Consider that when Lewinsky was notified that she was accepted to be a White House intern – a position with no realistic expectation of spending any time with the President – Lewinsky assured her Los Angeles girlfriends that she would end up blowing Bill Clinton. She was a woman on a mission.

After Lewinsky finagled her way into his pants, Clinton gave her his “rules of engagement”: if two people are in a room alone and both say that nothing happened between them, then nothing happened between them. Lewinsky knew what happened to Clinton’s past paramours (she did her “research”). Not for purposes of blackmail (at the time), but to protect herself from character assassination if the affair ever became public, Lewinsky saved a dress with Clinton’s sperm and didn’t tell Clinton about it.

After Clinton testified under oath that “there was no sexual relationship” between him and Lewinsky, and after Clinton emphatically declared to the American people on national television that he “never had sex with that woman” (he even pounded the podium with his fist), Lewinsky’s wealthy father vowed to defend his daughter’s reputation and dispatched his personal attorney William Ginsburg (whose specialty was medical malpractice defense, but who had a big mouth and relished the media attention) to Washington.

Basking in the limelight, Ginsburg appeared on every news show and every talk show, assuring the nation that Bill Clinton had nothing to worry about. During one such interview, Ginsburg declared that neither Dr. Lewinsky nor Monica nor Ginsburg himself had any desire to damage Bill Clinton, followed by the words “Bill Clinton is a friend of Israel.” No big deal was made about that statement, but it stuck in my mind.

Shortly thereafter, news was leaked that Monica Lewinsky had saved a dress with Clinton’s sperm. When I heard the news, I immediately recalled Ginsburg’s seemingly innocuous statement about Israel. I realized that Bill Clinton had compromised the presidency by making himself vulnerable to political blackmail if he were to act in a manner contrary to the interests of Israel. It was then that I concluded Bill Clinton was unfit to be President of the United States.

In sum, Bill Clinton was outsmarted by a 21 year-old and compromised the Presidency as a result, which in my view rendered him unfit to be entrusted with the most powerful job in the world.

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Postby jojo22 on Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:41 pm

So the question is - how does one view Monica Lewinsky in all of this?

Is she a victim because he called her 'that woman' and basically inferred she or those around her were lying?

Or was she a cunning vixen with a plan? She did seem to have an appetite for married men, which I find repulsive.

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Postby Guest on Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:36 pm

jojo22 wrote:
. wrote:"No comment gentlemen, I am married and I find this intrusion into my private affairs both undignified for you august gentlemen to ask and beneath the dignity of the office of the President of the USA to answer."


Yeeehhaaaaarrrr :clap:

Now what's the bet Bill would read that and think 'damn, I wish I had this person to write my replies back then?


I answered as I would, not as I would have Clinton answer. His answer reflected his personal ethics. Ethics that justified impeachment proceedings against a sitting President.

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Postby Guest on Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:40 pm

jojo22 wrote:So the question is - how does one view Monica Lewinsky in all of this?

Is she a victim because he called her 'that woman' and basically inferred she or those around her were lying?

Or was she a cunning vixen with a plan? She did seem to have an appetite for married men, which I find repulsive.


Both of course, like everyone else in the world. With the possible exception of my dear sweet Grandmother, may she rest in peace. I'm sure she didn't inhale or have sex either.

Lewinsky was wronged by Clinton and I have no doubt there was a bit of revenge and publicity seeking involved. She's paid for it by now I think.

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Postby jojo22 on Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:53 pm

I agree - she has sufferred enough.

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Postby Guest on Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:48 am

jojo22 wrote:So the question is - how does one view Monica Lewinsky in all of this?

Is she a victim because he called her 'that woman' and basically inferred she or those around her were lying?

Or was she a cunning vixen with a plan? She did seem to have an appetite for married men, which I find repulsive.

The Wall Street Journal daily OpinionJournal did a "blast from the past" on Wednesday with the following brief excerpt from the report of the independent counsel investigating President Clinton, which may address your question -- at least by illustration:

On the morning of Saturday, December 6 [1997], Ms. Lewinsky went to the White House to deliver the letter and gifts to the President. The gifts included a sterling silver antique cigar holder, a tie, a mug, a "Hugs and Kisses" box, and an antique book about Theodore Roosevelt. Ms. Lewinsky planned to leave the parcel with Ms. Currie, who had told Ms. Lewinsky that the President would be busy with his lawyers and unable to see her.

Ms. Lewinsky arrived at the White House at approximately 10:00 a.m. She told the Secret Service uniformed officers at the Northwest Gate that she had gifts to drop off for the President, but that Ms. Currie did not know she was coming. Ms. Lewinsky and the officers made several calls in an attempt to locate Ms. Currie. The officers eventually invited Ms. Lewinsky inside the guard booth. When Ms. Currie learned that Ms. Lewinsky was at the Northwest Gate, she sent word that the President "already had a guest in the [O]val," so the officers should have Ms. Lewinsky wait there for about 40 minutes.

While Ms. Lewinsky was waiting, one officer mentioned that Eleanor Mondale was in the White House. Ms. Lewinsky correctly surmised that the President was meeting with Ms. Mondale, rather than his lawyers, and she was "livid."

Link: http://opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110009349

By the way, Eleanor Mondale was much hotter than Monica Lewinsky. :lol:

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Postby Pere Ubu on Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:58 am

. wrote:
jojo22 wrote:So the question is - how does one view Monica Lewinsky in all of this?

Is she a victim because he called her 'that woman' and basically inferred she or those around her were lying?

Or was she a cunning vixen with a plan? She did seem to have an appetite for married men, which I find repulsive.

The Wall Street Journal daily OpinionJournal did a "blast from the past" on Wednesday with the following brief excerpt from the report of the independent counsel investigating President Clinton, which may address your question -- at least by illustration:

On the morning of Saturday, December 6 [1997], Ms. Lewinsky went to the White House to deliver the letter and gifts to the President. The gifts included a sterling silver antique cigar holder, a tie, a mug, a "Hugs and Kisses" box, and an antique book about Theodore Roosevelt. Ms. Lewinsky planned to leave the parcel with Ms. Currie, who had told Ms. Lewinsky that the President would be busy with his lawyers and unable to see her.

Ms. Lewinsky arrived at the White House at approximately 10:00 a.m. She told the Secret Service uniformed officers at the Northwest Gate that she had gifts to drop off for the President, but that Ms. Currie did not know she was coming. Ms. Lewinsky and the officers made several calls in an attempt to locate Ms. Currie. The officers eventually invited Ms. Lewinsky inside the guard booth. When Ms. Currie learned that Ms. Lewinsky was at the Northwest Gate, she sent word that the President "already had a guest in the [O]val," so the officers should have Ms. Lewinsky wait there for about 40 minutes.

While Ms. Lewinsky was waiting, one officer mentioned that Eleanor Mondale was in the White House. Ms. Lewinsky correctly surmised that the President was meeting with Ms. Mondale, rather than his lawyers, and she was "livid."

Link: http://opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110009349

By the way, Eleanor Mondale was much hotter than Monica Lewinsky. :lol:

That was me.

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