big brother : nadia

[mikenothing]

well, where should i start

i have a problem with nadia from Big Brother, moreover i am disgusted with the positive public reaction towards it ( i am hoping that the media has only presenting the positive views on it, and not the negative, to be politically correct )

first of all, it isnt a woman, its a man, not a man properly, because its mentally ill, but technically a man

u will notice how it is invariably men who have sex changes, men who have fetishes, men who carry out sexual offences, this is because some men cant get laid, and have to resort to abnormal methods in order to get their kicks, nadia is one one of these

i have had a few discussions with ppl about nadia, they usually say fairly idiotic things like shes a woman, shes so brave, shes so funny, i feel sorry for these people

argument 1 : she hasnt got a penis / has got a vagina - no, incorrect, if my penis were to be severed in a freak accident, it would make me a man who had his penis severed in a freak accident, not a woman, also, it does not have a vagina, it has some piece of skin mashed up and sewn to resemble a vagina, it is not a vagina

argument 2 : she has breast implants - no, this is no reason, if i were to have pectoral implants, am i now a woman ? no i am not i am a man who has bags of silicone in my chest, same as nadia

someone also tried to argue with me that it was different because nadia thought she was a woman, this may well be so, but it does not make it a woman, some people think they are cows, it doesnt make them a cow, some people think they are the son of god, it doesnt make them the son of god

it is a man who has had his penis removed, and has silicone bags in his chest, thats all

it has no womb, no ovaries, no hips, an adams apple, a jaw a WWF wrestler could be proud of, it has a prostate, its a man

for the most part, you are born male, or born female, it is written in genetic code in every cell of your body

nadia is a deception, it has deceived people, and i think that this it totally wrong

nadia is an advert for sexual deviancy, lies and deception, not to mention that it is extremely annoying, loud, common, has no standards, no intelligence to speak of, cheap and nasty

yet it would seem this man with tits is being embraced by the general public a some kind of an icon

an icon for deception and lies, i think this is wrong

[MandyUK]

Mike,

It would be very easy for me to get angry at this narrow minded attitude and I can only assume you've never even met a transsexual (at least, not knowingly), let alone take the chance to talk to one indepth what the real anguish of the condition is like?

I live not too far from Brighton, a quite large gay and transgender community, and have to come to know several, from cross-dressers to post-op TSs. So I like to think I'm speaking from a slightly more enlightened viewpoint about the subject. I hadn't really considered the subject too much until some years back when a pen-pal came out to me, and confessed she was a post-op, and had been since about 19. So I read up to find out what exactly she meant (she was a French-Canadian, so I also had to translate a little) when she went into somewhat graphic detail about the operation.

first of all, it isnt a woman, its a man, not a man properly, because its mentally ill, but technically a man

Genetically I'd agree. But genetics is also responsible for many other defects - do you deny people the opportunity to have treatment or surgery to correct those?

u will notice how it is invariably men who have sex changes, men who have fetishes, men who carry out sexual offences, this is because some men cant get laid, and have to resort to abnormal methods in order to get their kicks, nadia is one one of these

If you had the chance to hear my penpal, probably crying as she wrote it, relate to how sex is in many ways a complete turn-off to true TSs, because the physical difference (to them) just causes too much anguish.

I can't speak for Nadia - I don't watch 'Big Brother' - but others have talked about her at work.

i have had a few discussions with ppl about nadia, they usually say fairly idiotic things like shes a woman, shes so brave, shes so funny, i feel sorry for these people

And holding up transsexually as a 'deception' isn't an idiotic viewpoint - tell me, what side of the perfection line are you that you can be 100% honest in everything you do?

argument 1 : she hasnt got a penis / has got a vagina - no, incorrect, if my penis were to be severed in a freak accident, it would make me a man who had his penis severed in a freak accident, not a woman, also, it does not have a vagina, it has some piece of skin mashed up and sewn to resemble a vagina, it is not a vagina

argument 2 : she has breast implants - no, this is no reason, if i were to have pectoral implants, am i now a woman ? no i am not i am a man who has bags of silicone in my chest, same as nadia

It's the lesser of two evils - mental anguish vs physical imperfection. A post-op body is never going to be the exact same as a born womens admittedly, but I ask again, are you going to ask this question of people who have other defects, and have surgery to correct them?

someone also tried to argue with me that it was different because nadia thought she was a woman, this may well be so, but it does not make it a woman, some people think they are cows, it doesnt make them a cow, some people think they are the son of god, it doesnt make them the son of god

I did read that there could be (the research was still in early stages because it was difficult to get samples of TSs who were pre-hormone replacement) a physical reason for this - it was something to do with an area of the the brain (it was some years ago but I think the hippocampus?) which has a marked difference in size between men and women, and TSs were more like womens than men.

it is a man who has had his penis removed, and has silicone bags in his chest, thats all it has no womb, no ovaries, no hips, an adams apple, a jaw a WWF wrestler could be proud of, it has a prostate, its a man
for the most part, you are born male, or born female, it is written in genetic code in every cell of your body

Well again there's a bit of sloppy thinking here - nice to know you've done your research like a nice little ignoramous yourself - the cause of genetic difference is actually triggered hormonally in the womb. The default sex is female - everyone is XX chromosomes at egg stage, so by default everyone was a girl originally (how's that for 'girl power'!) - and while I'm sure a stud like yourself would like to think that it's your overpowering 'maleness' of your sperms that 'make a man a man' at impregnation stage, it's nothing of the sort. The fertilised egg undergoes a kind of 'hormonal wash' which then triggers the genetic development. And it isn't a matter of just 'black' and 'white' - you're either a man or a woman. Gender difference, so many other genetic differences, is a scale of grey - points on a line between extremes if you like - and I'm sure a child born of one white parent and one coloured parent would love having to be told by someone like you - 'you're either one or the other', rather than perhaps embracing both as something special.

Such barrier building - the age old 'them or us' attitude - is something I'd like to break down in any and every walk of life. Welcome back to the old school, Mike.

nadia is an advert for sexual deviancy, lies and deception, not to mention that it is extremely annoying, loud, common, has no standards, no intelligence to speak of, cheap and nasty

yet it would seem this man with tits is being embraced by the general public a some kind of an icon

an icon for deception and lies, i think this is wrong

Sounds to me like you have a problem with Nadia herself, rather than just TSs. Oh, and I hate all men for being so narrow-minded t****. No, wait a second, it's you I have the problem with - some men are actually quite genuine, sensitive and thoughtful. You're not a typical example? Oh, my mistake...

[Midge]

I would like to be angry with you 'mikenothing' but in fact, all i can do is pity you and your sad little world view.

What do you think gives you the right to tell other people how to live their lives? What do you think gives you the right to say that we must all be slaves to our genes? What makes you think you are so perfect?

In my experience it is always those who are least sure about themselves who feel the need to persecute a minority. The biggest Nazis were never the blond-haired, blue-eyed Aryans. Perhaps you should take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself if your prejudices stem from a deeper insecurity.

Just to make a few other points:

1. How can you call someone an "it"? Fine if you think Nadia is a man, just call her a man. To call someone an "it" or a "thing" is very worrying. If you de-humanise someone, you turn them into an object to be persecuted. Hitler did it with the Jews. Your logic would lead to a similar conclusion.

2. You say only Men have sex changes. Rubbish, plenty of women do too. Get your facts straight.

3. You say it is those who can't get laid who look for sexual kicks by changing sex. What drivel. I know plenty of men who haven't been laid in years who have no desire to change sex. If you're so sure about your theory, why not write into one of the medical journals. I'm sure you'd get a Nobel.

4. You say that a person is genetically either a man or a woman. Nonsense. Ever heard of intersex babies? Besides, scientists are beginning to discover that men who want to change into women usually have a different brain chemistry to other men. Genetics is a lot more complex than you think and there is nothing to say that we should be slaves to our genes anyway.

How truly sad.

[Sal*]

I agree 110% with Midge and Mandy UK. I've known a lot of narrow minded people in my day but I've never heard anything quite like the hatred that comes out of mikenothing.

I'm not going to say a lot here. Midge and Mandy have said pretty much everything, and said it quite well. I will say this tho...mikenothing, if you hate this Nadia so much, if 'it' is so despicable and so unnatural and so abhorrent, such an utter abomination to your idiology of what makes a man a man or a woman a woman...a human a human for that matter...then why don't you just turn your tv off? Why do you watch the show if it makes your blood boil so much? Change the channel, walk away, turn the tv off, unplug it if you have to. Then do us all a big favour and save your hatred and your ignorance for someone else. We really don't want to hear it.

[mikenothing]

thanks for ur replies, thanks for misquoting me, thanks for missing my point which was that i had a problem with the deception, rather than transexuals etc

to redress the balance :-

mandyuk - not liking something does not make me narrow minded, calling someone narrow minded because of their dislike for something is not right ( u also were mistaken about what i dislike )

i have also lived in brighton, and have met many cross dressers and all manner of of people, i have no problem with them

i do not deny anybody corrective surgery or other treatments because of a genetic difference from myself, i have not said anything to the contrary

i was not holding up transexuality as a deception, i was calling nadias concealment of her transexuality a deception, which it most certainly is

u wrote - "are you going to ask this question of people who have other defects, and have surgery to correct them"

of course not, this is nothing to do with any of what i wrote, but having a penis is not a defect since u have brought it up

i also liked the way in which u called me an ignoramous, and then went on to exaplin something to me incorrectly, this is why u are wrong :

sperms are male and female, whichever sperm gets there first decides the sex of the baby, male sperms carry less genetic information, they have that little Y chromosome instead of the full X, because of this they are lighter and "swim" faster, female sperms carry the full X and are heavier and "swim" slower, however they live longer than the male ones

nice try tho

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midge - i have not told anybody what to do anywhere, i didnt say anything about people being slaves to their genes, and i didnt say that im perfect, are u sure ur reading my post ?

i am not persecuting anyone, and i have not included any prejudices in anything i have written here, please do not make things up

i refer to nadia as an "it" because it isnt a woman, its a man, but not a man in a certain sense of the word, and it is quite fitting

i did not say that only men have sex changes, i was trying to say that it is usually men that have sex changes, which is true

i did not say that people who cant get laid looks for sexual kicks by changing sex, my point was, people who cant get laid often develop fetishes, and often choose an abnormal sexual lifestyle, and some pretend to be women, not all, but some, which is true

ur final point : no i did not say that a person is either genetically a man or a woman, i am fully aware that there are people born with both sets of sex organs etc, what i said was that for the most part peoploe are born male or female, got that ? see those 4 words "for the most part"

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sal* - once again ty for calling me narrow minded simply because i dont like something that is wrong

im not going to address ur post properly, its filled with words that dont even come close to anything that i said, please read what i post properly before replying

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in conclusion, my problem is not with transexuals, i dont care about them, if they arent hurting anyone they can do what they want, but nadia is not doing this, she is deceiving people, and this is wrong

my problem is with her deception, if i am narrow minded for thinking that deception is wrong, then fine, i can live with that

lets have a little day dream for a minute here. lets say i dress up as a woman, and go into my local swimming baths and into the ladies changing areas, and into the ladies showers

if i was a woman i dont imagine that other women using these facilities would mind, but im not a woman, im a man dressed as a woman, and i am using deception to carrying out actions that these women would most likely not want me to do

this is what nadia is doing, and this is why i dont like it, it is doing things to people under the pretence of being a woman, things that they would not allow it to do if they knew the truth

this is wrong, and i am not narrow minded for feeling this way

[/quote]

[MandyUK]

Mike,

Thank you for coming back. I can see that perhaps I have misunderstood a little of what you were saying - but referring to Nadia as an 'it' made it seem you were addressing the whole of transsexuality, not just an individual. In somes ways I think you still are.

I confess probably mixing up some of the genetic points, but when I read into the subject some years ago (and I also confess not being an expert), the books I read suggested strongly that the cause of transsexuality was hormonal, not genetic.

But it does seem to me you are missing some points yourself. I haven't watched Big Brother but someone who has mentioned Nadia is a somewhat dislikeable individual. This does not make her a mouthpiece for TSs, nor the best example - though regrettably the best known at this time.

You accuse her of being deceitful. She's a post-op, and most true post-ops will not want to be known as TS - they want to just be known as women. By accusing Nadia, you do infact call all TSs deceitful by default. Would you rather they all walked around wearing a sign or badge? Perhaps they could say 'hey I'm a freak and liar in your eyes', just in case most people haven't got the message.

I sounds to me, like lots of people, you are confusing cross-dressers, transvestites, transgenderists and transsexuals as all one and the same. They aren't. I also went on the net to try and find some info, and was shocked at what i take to be sex sites showing 'transsexuals', with breasts (which must be implants) and erect penises. If these were true transsexuals, they would become impotent through hormone replacement. I don't know what call these people, but they're not true transsexuals. Unfortunately, I suspect most men are going to come into contact with sites like this, rather than the true condition, and believe they are.

in conclusion, my problem is not with transexuals, i dont care about them, if they arent hurting anyone they can do what they want, but nadia is not doing this, she is deceiving people, and this is wrong

my problem is with her deception, if i am narrow minded for thinking that deception is wrong, then fine, i can live with that

Well another point you are missing is - did the producers of Big Brother tell her to keep quiet, so the controversy would be bigger? Perhaps you should write and ask, seeing as you have so much of a problem with it. I certainly would be interested to hear a reply.

In the meantime you, along with how many other viewers, make them think they are right in screening this 'circus' by boosting their figures. The show sickened me from the start. It does more so now, along wiith most 'reality TV'.

lets have a little day dream for a minute here. lets say i dress up as a woman, and go into my local swimming baths and into the ladies changing areas, and into the ladies showers

if i was a woman i dont imagine that other women using these facilities would mind, but im not a woman, im a man dressed as a woman, and i am using deception to carrying out actions that these women would most likely not want me to do

this is what nadia is doing, and this is why i dont like it, it is doing things to people under the pretence of being a woman, things that they would not allow it to do if they knew the truth

No it isn't, and this is why I again think you almost wholly miss the point of what true transsexualism is. Just dressing as a woman doesn't make you TS. Nadia has gone through a long journey, hormones and surgery. She doesn't have to say 'I'm a TS' to everyone she meets, any more than you would have to admit any problem you have to all and sundry. It's this very point, again, which makes me think you're simply paying lip service.

[pawsntails]

Nadia was born a male 'she' can never become a female but she can become a woman

definition of woman:
Women considered as a group; womankind
Feminine quality or aspect; womanliness.

You do not have to be born female to be a woman!

Anyway I have been doing enough typing to do, so I'll leave it at that, cause I'm sure everyone else has covered everything that this topic brought up.

[Sal*]

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your post. Reading it the 1st time I was shocked at you calling a person an 'it' and was under the impression that you felt that way about all transexuals. You're right, I didn't interpret it correctly.

You say you have a problem with this Nadia only, and with her/his deception. That being the case my question still stands...why don't you simply turn the channel and not watch? There are many reality shows on these days with people and subjects that I find offensive. I just don't watch the programs. It's as simple as that.

[Midge]

Mikenothing. I don't think you can wriggle out of your first post that easily. If your intention was simply to make a point about how dislikeable Nadia is, then why did you spend most of your post attacking transexualism in general?

Firstly, your continued use of the word "it" is de-humanising and offensive to transexuals. It implies that they are not really human.

You go on to say:

"u will notice how it is invariably men who have sex changes, men who have fetishes, men who carry out sexual offences, this is because some men cant get laid, and have to resort to abnormal methods in order to get their kicks, nadia is one one of these"

So, Nadia has undergone her sex change as part of a sexually frustrated fetish. In a previous sentence, you also accuse her of being mentally ill because she has gone through all of this. I think that demonstrates an extraordinary lack of understanding of what transexuals are.

Even some basic research demonstrates that transexuals are people who are deeply uncomfortable with their ascribed gender, not people out for sex kicks. In order to qualify for hormone treatment and ultimately surgery, they have to get clearance from a psycologist who has to be convinced that they are suffering a genuine anguish at being in the "wrong" body. A man out to satisfy a sexual fetish wouldn't get past the first interview.

Of course there are men who act or dress like women in order to satisfy sexual kicks, but they are not transexuals. They usually go no further than cross dressing. It's worth remembering that men who take female hormones become impotent. That's a strange way to get sexual kicks if you ask me.

If you dislike Nadia for her personality and her "deception", then fair enough. I haven't seen the show so i cannot comment on those things. But having a go at her for being a transexual is very unpleasant stuff, especially when you use the word "it".

[MandyUK]

Interesting aside about female-to-male transsexuals, and a learning point in my case...

At the time I was trying to learn more about TSs, I went to a transgender film festival in London. While waiting outside, I saw a young woman, possibly in her early twenties, but she was dressed in a man's suit, and had stubble on her face so must have taking hormones of some sort.

She was actually quite attractive underneath all this, and I would like to think would have made any guy proud to have her as a gf, and my first thought was 'how could she do that to her face!?'... but then I realised what the extent of the TS anguish must be like. It didn't matter what she looked like on the outside, it was how bad she felt about looking like that to her on the inside that drove her to do it. I felt both chastened for suddenly realising my own brief prejudice, and sad at coming to terms with how the condition affects TSs. A guy might look like a wrestler or truck-driver, but it's possible for them to have the heart of a girl inside too...

[Alyeska]

Mike,

You need help pal, really you are one twisted dude who thinks he can run all over people just because he has a penis for a brain. Now you try to re-state your position after the barrage of truth slaps you in the face, get a grip. You should know as an adult, that YOU are held accountable for your actions, so in the future say what you mean(exactly) and mean what you say.
The problem with guys like you are that you really are not a man. Real men are nice guys, kind, considerate and thoughtful, they actually have compassion for their fellow man. Morons like you are Sissies and Cowards, a poor example of the male species and everytime I see or hear about whimps like you it makes me want to vomit. You are a poor excuse for a man and I am sick and tired of clowns like you speaking for the rest of us in the male population.

What is your beef with Nadia anyhow? What is it exactly that you find so threatening? Did mommy force you to dress as a little girl growing up?

I tell ya Mikey, I just don't get guys like you, maybe it's a testosterone imbalance? Seriously, I think you should get your balls cut off and then you might calm down, become a more civilized person., and actually have something to contribute to society.
Maybe then you'll be able to look in the mirrior a call yourself a man, but until you can feel with your heart and think with your cerebral brain and stop thinking with your dickhead, don't call yourself a man it's a real emabarrasment to those of us that are men!
If you are able to read, you might check out the book called " True Selves" Understanding Transsexualism by Mildred L. Brown it is written very well and you might actually learn something. But if you decide not to check this out then do yourself a favor, and research your subject matter before you write another hateful message, it really shows your lack of literacy! Good luck,
Alyeska

[Guest]

Snip the balls off and they become easier to live with Alyeska. Interesting. I sort of understood Mike there, but I think he was still feeling out his ideas on the subject and was looking for a sounding board. You, Alyeska, I understand perfectly.

[jetset_willy]

I think Mike may have been a little over-the-top, but I do think that as a society we need to mature a little and realise that surgery, either cosmetic or sex-changing, is unlikely to be the cure-all for men/women like Nadia.

Someone claiming that they're a woman trapped in a man's body and Society deciding that this is a legitimate reason for surgically changing their physical attributes to make them look like what they 'think' they really are seems to be over-simplistic.

Not everyone is happy with their appearance, their situation, their circumstances.... perhaps transgenderism is an extreme version of this.
Seems to be that offering surgery is a bit like asking a manic depressive what would make them happy and then giving them exactly what they ask for, without considering longer term implications, for both them and others.