Is There A Legal Reason...

Discuss Social and Political issues that are affecting you. Bash the Politicians!
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myron myron
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Postby myron myron on Sat May 17, 2008 5:21 am


Remember the first time you lost your S*** with me, walker/Cambridge?


walker wrote:You know what? It just hit me like an metorite. The rest of your garbage, I am tired of debatintg. Put niggers in cages or hang Asians by their middle toes, or whatever you Conservatives want to do. I'm just too F****** tired to oppose you anymore.

walker wrote:It's morning now and I really apologize for that stupid, stupid post. I am sick as hell with this damn flu and last night I was just exasperated, tired and really at my wits end. There's no excuse really, I'm just telling you the way it was. Murry I directly apoloize to you not only because that was uncalled for, but because you provide such good company and such good. spirited debate. We'll be back, I promise. To the rest of you, please forgive me.

I've awakened at about 10:40 am and I've got clean sheets. Don't clean sheets feel really great in the morning? I'm still sick as a dog, so it might take a while for me to get back...maybe a little later. Thanks friends. That was not the real me.


walker wrote:Thanks, minx. And green, no, no, no…. Thank you for your reassurance, but that’s not a proper way for me to act. In no way does it reflect the way I feel about conservatives, Murry or anything involved in the issue. I was intellectually tired as well as physically tired and I was mad as hell at myself for not having the energy to carry on. If I’d just realized, ‘Wait until morning”.

Psycho. :lol:


Cambridge
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Postby Cambridge on Sat May 17, 2008 5:29 am

What a loser. Can’t win the current debate…so he has to dig into history. I could dig into history too, but why bother. I've just won the current debate. :D

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myron myron
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Postby myron myron on Sat May 17, 2008 5:36 am

Go ahead, dig in, psycho. :lol:

Only a mega-loser declares himself the winner of a debate, you idiot. :rotflmao:

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Postby Cambridge on Sat May 17, 2008 5:40 am

To respond would be gratuitous.

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myron myron
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Postby myron myron on Sat May 17, 2008 5:41 am

Cambridge wrote:To respond would be gratuitous.

You just did respond, you idiot. :rotflmao:

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Postby Cambridge on Sat May 17, 2008 5:43 am

Only a simpleton like you would see it that way. Buzz off, half-truth.

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myron myron
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Postby myron myron on Sat May 17, 2008 5:51 am

Whatever you say, cuckold boy. :lol:

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Postby Cambridge on Sat May 17, 2008 5:58 am

You're drunk again, myron. I can tell. You don't return to your defeated arguments unless your drunken state confuses you. Talk to you in the morning, when you're sober.

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The Colonel
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Postby The Colonel on Sat May 17, 2008 6:10 pm

Cambridge wrote:

And where exactly is Britain's constitution written?


See, this is why I call him “half-truth.” Even tho he isn’t a lawyer, he learned at U Penn that Britain has had a constitution since 1297, when John I signed the Magna Carta. Britain doesn’t need a written constitution because it believes in tradition and respects the rules. Something the US could take a badly needed lesson in. The US, as myron eminently exemplifies, is expert in trickery. So it needs to write it down. That is what the California Supreme Court has done.


You are technically correct. However, the Magna Carta of 1297 was confirmed by Edward I. King John I signed the orginal Magna Carta of 1215. (Essentially it was revised as John made it to deal with short term issues but it was then made long term by Edward, and as it happens I am directly descended from them both). Three clauses of the Magna Carta remain in force to this day. It directly influenced the founders of the United States also.

Pursuant to the doctrine of Parliamentary sovereignty, in English law there can be no set of legally entrenched, fundamental, positive rights existing beyond Parliament’s countermand. In English law, the liberties of the subject were merely implications drawn by the courts from two principles, namely:

- that you can do anything you want, provided there is no law against it; and
- that you could be assured that your individual rights would not be interfered with by a public authority unless there was express legal authority to do so under statute or the common law.

It is in this sense that the liberties of an individual are ‘residual’, as AV Dicey termed them (his work forms part of the UK Constitution as a work of authority) rather than fundamental and positive in their nature. In Dicey’s view, this negative approach to defining liberties provided a much more robust basis for their protection than would be afforded by a positive declaration of rights in a constitutional document such as the Bill of Rights (USA) or the Declaration des droits (France). He pointed to the protection afforded to such rights and liberties in the UK, where the courts strictly and precisely defined the extent to which they might be interfered with under the existing statutory and common law, in contrast to the protection afforded by what was, in his view, the vague words of a positive declaration of rights. In short, precisely defining the permissible limitations to such rights was more valuable and enforceable than defining the rights themselves.

Dicey’s contention was that constitutional documents such as in the US or France were NOT automatic guarantees of the rights they contain, and were little more than pious declarations in the absence of institutions with the willingness and integrity to apply them. (For example the US 14th and 15th Amendments were passed in 1865 but were NOT legally enforced properly due to discrimination towards blacks until the 1960’s). Further, in France under its 1791 constitution, it guarantees freedom of expression and freedom of the press, yet they have very restrictive publishing laws.

It is all very well having it in a document – but if no one will enforce it – it is useless. It is a bit like Leviticus, where christians are instructed that they must not eat shellfish, cut their hair, or approach an altar without perfect sight. These are not enforced and are ignored. Yet, the passage condemning homosexuals is never forgotten! It is very much the same principle! In the UK, all laws must be enforced at all times, and with the ECHR in British law, it now means there is added protection of rights against the possible actions of the government.

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Postby azraelle on Sat May 17, 2008 8:01 pm

The US Bill Of Rights encompasses ONLY the first 10 amendments to the constitution, and constitute a special fundamental place in American Constitutional Law. They would not be there, if it had not been necessary to convince the then 13 states that the Constitution was worthy of adoption in 1788-89. The states wouldn't have demanded them to be spelled out had they not had very recent NEGATIVE experience with your vaunted British "negative approach to defining liberties" which, apparently, did nothing to provide a "much more robust basis for their protection than would be afforded by a positive declaration of rights in a constitutional document such as the Bill of Rights", at least not in the American Colonies, otherwise the American Colonists would not have fought their Revolutionary War.
The Colonel wrote:America has guns because it is violent. With 4000 under 19's dying every year from gun crime. Us British tend to value life a good bit more than owning guns, we'd rather not own them so that 4000 under 19's don't die. It is not a "human right" to own a gun. The state has a monopoly on weapons under the Firearms and Hazardous Materials Acts, and this does not violate the ECHR or the Human Rights Act (1998) of which it forms a part.


The right to own weapons as an individual was made a "human right" in the US Constitution because the framers did not want their government to be able to abuse them in the ways that the King of England and his ministers had done so with their "monopoly on weapons". It is a fact that no tyrannical state has ever come to power in the history of the world to a citizenry that was individually armed, unless that citizenry first allowed itself to be dis-armed by the state, usually through promises that the state would take care of them.
"Those Who Cast the Votes Decide Nothing.
Those who Count the Votes decide everything"
--Joseph Stalin

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Postby Fred75 on Sat May 17, 2008 8:23 pm

The Colonel wrote:America has guns because it is violent. With 4000 under 19's dying every year from gun crime. Us British tend to value life a good bit more than owning guns, we'd rather not own them so that 4000 under 19's don't die. It is not a "human right" to own a gun. The state has a monopoly on weapons under the Firearms and Hazardous Materials Acts, and this does not violate the ECHR or the Human Rights Act (1998) of which it forms a part.


Guns don't kill....People do!

And if you look closely at who is doing all the killing you will see it's black men from fatherless homes in schools that stopped teaching Gods morals!
We Americans are damn tired of being thought of as dumb by the rest of the world. So we went to the polls in November and removed all doubt.

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myron myron
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Postby myron myron on Sat May 17, 2008 8:26 pm


The U.S. Constitution enumerates specific rights and liberties as well as incorporating the "negative approach to defining liberties."

The Bill of Rights provides in its entirety as follows:


Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms. Ratified 12/15/1791.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 3 - Quartering of Soldiers. Ratified 12/15/1791.

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 5 - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings. Ratified 12/15/1791.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 6 - Right to Speedy Trial, Confrontation of Witnesses. Ratified 12/15/1791.

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 7 - Trial by Jury in Civil Cases. Ratified 12/15/1791.

In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 8 - Cruel and Unusual Punishment. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 9 - Construction of Constitution. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.




The first eight Amendments enumerate specific rights and liberties.

The Ninth and Tenth Amendments incorporate the "negative approach to defining liberties."


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myron myron
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Postby myron myron on Sat May 17, 2008 8:38 pm

azraelle wrote:The right to own weapons as an individual was made a "human right" in the US Constitution because the framers did not want their government to be able to abuse them in the ways that the King of England and his ministers had done so with their "monopoly on weapons". It is a fact that no tyrannical state has ever come to power in the history of the world to a citizenry that was individually armed, unless that citizenry first allowed itself to be dis-armed by the state, usually through promises that the state would take care of them.

Well said.

Moreover, as wisely noted by Niccolo Machiavelli, "When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred."


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The Colonel
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Postby The Colonel on Sat May 17, 2008 10:14 pm

myron myron wrote:
The U.S. Constitution enumerates specific rights and liberties as well as incorporating the "negative approach to defining liberties."

The Bill of Rights provides in its entirety as follows:


Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms. Ratified 12/15/1791.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 3 - Quartering of Soldiers. Ratified 12/15/1791.

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 5 - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings. Ratified 12/15/1791.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 6 - Right to Speedy Trial, Confrontation of Witnesses. Ratified 12/15/1791.

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 7 - Trial by Jury in Civil Cases. Ratified 12/15/1791.

In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 8 - Cruel and Unusual Punishment. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 9 - Construction of Constitution. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.




The first eight Amendments enumerate specific rights and liberties.

The Ninth and Tenth Amendments incorporate the "negative approach to defining liberties."



This is exactly what Dicey was talking about. It is simply not good enough.

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The Colonel
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Postby The Colonel on Sat May 17, 2008 10:19 pm

myron myron wrote:
azraelle wrote:The right to own weapons as an individual was made a "human right" in the US Constitution because the framers did not want their government to be able to abuse them in the ways that the King of England and his ministers had done so with their "monopoly on weapons". It is a fact that no tyrannical state has ever come to power in the history of the world to a citizenry that was individually armed, unless that citizenry first allowed itself to be dis-armed by the state, usually through promises that the state would take care of them.

Well said.

Moreover, as wisely noted by Niccolo Machiavelli, "When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred."



Name the civilised Western nations that have guns.

The US has sown the seeds of its own destruction. There is no way the military could possibly control the people or restore order in a time of massive crisis.

I once said that one nuclear explosion would be enough to bring down any nation. The US would collapse into itself. Each state would assume its own authority against another, the various factions would war with each other, then turn on each other. That is exactly why Madison wanted federalism, as there is no way of controlling you except in groups. When those groups break down - you are doomed.

It happened once in the civil war. The US will not last.

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