Too old to wear knee socks to school?

[june d]

Thank you for your reply.

No doubt she will spend a few restless hours in her bed thinking over why did'nt she obey the curfew whilst she tries to get off to sleep to avoid thinking about the horrible thought of being dressed in her school dress.

I wonder how long the mother would consider using such a punishment on her eldest daighter?

She is probably also made to wear childish pyjamas or nightdress as weel to further add to her woes.

June

[Guest]

Thank you for your reply.

No doubt she will spend a few restless hours in her bed thinking over why did'nt she obey the curfew whilst she tries to get off to sleep to avoid thinking about the horrible thought of being dressed in her school dress.

I wonder how long the mother would consider using such a punishment on her eldest daighter?

She is probably also made to wear childish pyjamas or nightdress as weel to further add to her woes.

June

why not put a nappie on her too ?

[Winifred I]

As someone who has endured a similar punishment to the one described here I can assure you it does work. I am now 23 but until I left school (age 18+) I was subjected to punishment via wearing of junior school uniform and other restrictions in keeping with this for any lack of compliance with my parents rules. There were two basic uniforms I endured. The first was a summer uniform of green cotton gingham dress, white ankle socks, elasticated green school knickers, T bar shoes and a round neck green woollen school cardigan. The second, equally humiliating and even more uncomfortable particularly if applied in the warm summer, was a winter uniform of elasticated green school knickers, grey blouse, green and maroon stripped tie, again T bar shoes, thick grey knee socks, a maroon worsted below knee length pinafore and a minimum of a V-neck green school cardigan. Depending on my misbehaviour I also was made to spend time in my bedroom writing lines and essays as well as simple but humiliating assignments such as standing in the corner with my hands on my head.

My parents were very strict and I received punishment for what I thought were relatively minor offences. Even so I can assure as one of the people writing noted I was never keen to rush off to meet my friends dressed in punishement uniform even when I was not restricted from doing so by detention and other restrictions.

[Mature Student]

As someone who has endured a similar punishment to the one described here I can assure you it does work. I am now 23 but until I left school (age 18+) I was subjected to punishment via wearing of junior school uniform and other restrictions in keeping with this for any lack of compliance with my parents rules. There were two basic uniforms I endured. The first was a summer uniform of green cotton gingham dress, white ankle socks, elasticated green school knickers, T bar shoes and a round neck green woollen school cardigan. The second, equally humiliating and even more uncomfortable particularly if applied in the warm summer, was a winter uniform of elasticated green school knickers, grey blouse, green and maroon stripped tie, again T bar shoes, thick grey knee socks, a maroon worsted below knee length pinafore and a minimum of a V-neck green school cardigan. Depending on my misbehaviour I also was made to spend time in my bedroom writing lines and essays as well as simple but humiliating assignments such as standing in the corner with my hands on my head.

My parents were very strict and I received punishment for what I thought were relatively minor offences. Even so I can assure as one of the people writing noted I was never keen to rush off to meet my friends dressed in punishement uniform even when I was not restricted from doing so by detention and other restrictions.

Winifred

This does seem rather harsh punishment for disobedience even though it worked. Did your parents ever take you out in your junior school uniform? That would have been awful unless you were able to pass as much younger than your real age. I am not against humiliation as a punishment, after all most chastisements contain some degree of shaming, but it is a question of degree. You write as though it seems that you felt the way you were treated did you good. Is this correct? If so then I guess no lasting harm has been done and your parents succeeded in making you obedient. This might not be the case for other girls in their late teens who could have been left traumatised.

You say that the punishments lasted until you left school at 18+. If you have remained living at home how have your parents punished you since? Are you still punished at 23 and in what way? Sorry for all the questions but I find it a captivating if somewhat disturbing case.

[Guest]

When wearing either winter or junior school uniform I was made to appear in front of people visiting our home where this did not prevent continuation of other aspects of my punishment such as detention. Only on a single time was I obliged to make appearence in public in my uniform as part of my punishment when I returned home late having been both smoking and drinking. This then formed an aspect of what I have to have admit was set of well deserved and prolonged punishments including uniform, detention, corner time, corporal punishment and other items which lasted over several weeks. I continued to receive discipline as necessary from my parents until I finished school (and then during vacations if I was at home) until I completed my university course but not since.

These punishments were designed to punish me for my offences (be they academic laziness, lack of respect or more serious ones such as smoking under age), deter me from repeating and make me an example to others of the consequences. Whilst I did not enjoy them they have certainly not stopped and may in part of helped me develop the necessary self discipline and hard working ethos to start developing a very successful career.

[Mature Student]

When wearing either winter or junior school uniform I was made to appear in front of people visiting our home where this did not prevent continuation of other aspects of my punishment such as detention. Only on a single time was I obliged to make appearence in public in my uniform as part of my punishment when I returned home late having been both smoking and drinking. This then formed an aspect of what I have to have admit was set of well deserved and prolonged punishments including uniform, detention, corner time, corporal punishment and other items which lasted over several weeks. I continued to receive discipline as necessary from my parents until I finished school (and then during vacations if I was at home) until I completed my university course but not since.

These punishments were designed to punish me for my offences (be they academic laziness, lack of respect or more serious ones such as smoking under age), deter me from repeating and make me an example to others of the consequences. Whilst I did not enjoy them they have certainly not stopped and may in part of helped me develop the necessary self discipline and hard working ethos to start developing a very successful career.

Sorry Winifred, but I am not sure I fully understand. You write that these punishments continued until you completed your university course "but not since then" yet in your second paragraph you say that "they have certainly not stopped". Does this mean you are still, at 23, punished this way by being made to wear schoolgirl uniform, given corporal punishments and detentions etc etc?

[Winifred I]

Sorry some poor grammar on my part this should have read,".. Whilst I did not enjoy them they have certainly not stopped me and may in part of helped me develop the necessary self discipline and hard working ethos to start developing a very successful career."

I have not suffered the humiliation of being dressed in junior school uniform or other clothing restrictions which my parents applied as part of penance for misbehaviour since I left university 2 years ago. Nor have I been disciplined by them in other ways.

You are correct that being made to dress this way in public, from the experience I did receive, is exceedingly humiliating. However my parents saw to it that people were not allowed to take undue pity on me by insisting that whenever asked by someone why I was being humiliated I explained in person about my failure to arrive home on time, smoking, under age drinking and lying to try and avoid punishment. In addition I had to detail the other punishments I had received as part of my restitution for these offences - corporal punishment, detention writing lines and essays, corner time, bed clothing, being made to behave like a naughty sschoolgirl at all times (speaking only when spoken to, etc..). In most cases many people then responded how pleased they were to see someone whose parents were ensuring their daughter was being right from wrong and that there were penalties, including public humiliation, that resulted from such disobedience.

In my case I would say that having to wear a woollen school cardigan or cardigans was what I found personally most humiliating rather than the wearing of ankle or knee socks. Even when I had completed my four weeks in school uniform I found myself wearing at least one plain coloured woollen cardigan from a charity shop at all times out of school for a further two months to underline me of the need not to behave in a conservative and plain way and not in the flashy/loud way that my drinking/smoking had indicated.

[Guest]

How widespread is it that parents exercise such punishments?

Clothes are something that expresses the wearer’s identity and how they want to be perceived. Any confident and outgoing teenager will normally choose to wear clothes that are fashionable and reflect that they want to be seen and treated as a young adult as opposed to a child. If the same teenager is made to dress in a manner that is childish, then other people’s perception of that young person changes and they will be treated differently and that young person will also start to behave differently. Teenage girls in particular are highly image conscious and I can see that imposing a particular dress code on an errant teenager could be a highly effective punishment, and something they won’t want to experience again.

I can see that wearing white knee socks beyond a certain age can be an embarrassment, and in winter months will be uncomfortable when compared to tights. It’s not difficult to see that the wearing a childish dress, and perhaps been made to have her hair styled in a certain manner will add to the humiliation. I would imagine that dressed in that way, the girl will not want to draw attention to herself (which is probably part of the reason why she is being punished), nor will she feel she can demand “teenagers rights” such as being able to stay up later, or demand extra pocket money.

[Jennifer M]

I am not sure how widespread this type of approach is but I use it with both of my daughters and I am aware of other parents who use variations of this approach. I think it would be useful for those of us doing this to share what options we use and adopt and what works best and perhaps is appropriate for different levels of misbehviour (although it is for individual parents to determine the appropriate severity for thier own children). I think it would be really good to understand in greater detail from the young lady who wrote earlier (Winifred?) about the different aspects of the punishments she received and what she thinks was most effective - if she can bear to relive both her misbehaviour and subsequent disciplining. Or from anyone else with experience.

To start the process and because it is currently very fresh in my mind I will share how my daughter Laura is currently being punished following her return after agreed curfew from a party last Friday night. Laura is 16 and has just started studying for her AS levels. She obviously thought she would try and use this first social outing of the school year to show her friends her independence and maturity by openly flouting her curfew time to return to the house of 10:15 pm by arriving home at 11:00 PM. Even worse when we told her she would be punished for this she was defiant and rude to use. We let her go to bed but on Saturday morning we told her of our disappointment in her behaviour, failure to accept her breakage of the rules and insolence. She was still poor in her apology and she was therefore assigned the following punishment.

All time out of school from last Saturday (6/9) until next Monday (15/9) morning to be spent in junior school uniform. Black laced shoes, grey ribbed knee socks, light blue shirt, maroon and navy stripped tie, grey pinafore dress with pleated skirt and maroon V-neck woollen school cardigan.

At night a knee length, long sleeved cream cotton nightgown.

No TV, magazines, music.

Grounded obviously although I'm sure she wouldn't wish to go out!

Confined to own room except when eating meals or otherwise directed.

Four sides of lines or four side essay every night.

12 sides of line or 12 side essay on Sat/Sun

Speak only when spoken to at home.

Mouth washed out with soap in front of her sister.

She has been punished similarly before but I am sure given how she was trying to be grown-up and smart the punsihment treating her as the naughty little schoolgirl she has behaved like has hit her hard. She will of course be grounded for at least another couple of weeks even when out of uniform. I was interested in the comments about making a girl dress plainly even if not in uniform to reduce "showing-off" and am wondering whether this might also be a suitbale sanction for Laura. I will be interested to hear the comments of others.

I think just because other parents may find this approach harsh and humiliating that does not make it inappropriate.

Jennifer

[Guest]

Jennifer

That’s quite a list a sanctions, but there is a danger that such action could be regarded as a “cruel and unusual punishment” and something the authorities may not approve of. Making a child stay at home is a reasonable sanction, and imposing a particular dress code should be okay provided they are clothes that would be accepted as suitable clothes for the person’s age or gender. Making a fifteen year old girl wear a nappy would be inappropriate, but an unfashionable dress (provided it’s not too short!) with white socks should not cause any legal problems, unless she decides to sue you under the “Human Rights Act”

In the case of Laura I would suggest a behaviour improvement plan in which she is subject to a series of sanctions which will be lifted over the coming weeks as her behaviour improves;

Clothes – the parent decides what she wears at all times, e.g. if the sixth form has a specific dress code she should wear the standard lower school uniform with a skirt and socks instead, and allow concessions as behaviour improves

Bedtimes – an early bedtime e.g. 9 pm, that can be made later as behaviour improves

Going out unaccompanied – re-introduce opportunities as behaviour improves

Pocket Money – reduce to a nominal amount and only give extra for good behaviour

You could also set targets such as she must help around the house, and achieve improved marks at school. This way the punishment is not something entirely punitive but a method for her to improve herself. I don’t think giving out lines is the right approach to take.

[Guest]

Jennifer

That’s quite a list a sanctions, but there is a danger that such action could be regarded as a “cruel and unusual punishment” and something the authorities may not approve of. Making a child stay at home is a reasonable sanction, and imposing a particular dress code should be okay provided they are clothes that would be accepted as suitable clothes for the person’s age or gender. Making a fifteen year old girl wear a nappy would be inappropriate, but an unfashionable dress (provided it’s not too short!) with white socks should not cause any legal problems, unless she decides to sue you under the “Human Rights Act”

In the case of Laura I would suggest a behaviour improvement plan in which she is subject to a series of sanctions which will be lifted over the coming weeks as her behaviour improves;

Clothes – the parent decides what she wears at all times, e.g. if the sixth form has a specific dress code she should wear the standard lower school uniform with a skirt and socks instead, and allow concessions as behaviour improves

Bedtimes – an early bedtime e.g. 9 pm, that can be made later as behaviour improves

Going out unaccompanied – re-introduce opportunities as behaviour improves

Pocket Money – reduce to a nominal amount and only give extra for good behaviour

You could also set targets such as she must help around the house, and achieve improved marks at school. This way the punishment is not something entirely punitive but a method for her to improve herself. I don’t think giving out lines is the right approach to take.

I really do think this is getting out of hand I just dont agree on all these comments. if your daughter misbehaves you can do a couple things like ground them stop their pocket money and so on BUT I would never ever make a 18 year old girl dress in a girls junior school uniform as a punishment I really do think you all need your HEADS TESTING!

[Guest]

I am afraid that I do not agree with the last post. As a parent I have made use of this type of approach with both of our daughters. I have never fortunately had to use in some of the circumstances described here - smoking, drinking, etc. although I can say I would have had no hesitation in employing it. With both of our daughetrs we used this type of approach for any sort of sub-standard academic performance which could be seen as being a rsult of a lack of effort or application. Our daughters were well aware of what was expecyed both from the school and ourselves and the consequences of failure due to a lack of effort on thier part. Typically in the few occassions where it proved necessary we applied the following penance (typically for between 2-10 days). This was on the basis that if they could not behave as maturely as expectyed in tgier studies they would have extra time to study but under the conditions of a junior school student. We applied this between ages 13-18. The parts were similar to those described by someone earlier.

Uniform when not at school - Lavendar gingham dress, purple ankle socks, black T strap sandals, V-neck green woollen cardigan with purple trim. Hair worm swpet back from the forhead and in a bun, ponytail or pigtails.

Confined to the study room except for meals.

Always to be studying.

Stood to attention when anyone enters the room, Spoke only when spoken to. Always finish with Sir and Miss as appropriate.

Bedtime 8:15 pm (Mon-Thurs) and 7:30 pm (Fri-Sun).

Made to stand facing the wall or corner with hands on head for perios while we reviewed their work.

We found that they both generally wer very quick to learn their lesson and I ampleased to say having both graduated from Oxford now have successful medical careers. I should say on one occassion hwne our eldest Mealnie was 17 she spent the first 3 weeks of her summer holidays under theses conditions having only averaged 65% in her Lower Sixth exams. She went on to get straight As the next year.

I would recommend the approach to anyone striving for excellence in behaviour as an approach.

Vicki

[sarah_ph]

My kids are grown up and have long since left the nest to live their own lives. I have two girls and a boy and I used clothing as a punishment in their teen years usually by making the girls wear white socks with their school uniform and putting my son back into short trousers. These punishments were imposed at weekends and in school holidays and normally only around the home but they did have to go out sometimes dressed this way. I didn't have to do it much because it was always effective and their behaviour improved enormously, at least until the next time.

I last imposed dress punishment like this on the girls when they were 18 and on my son when he was 16. It was a valuable alternative to corporal punishment which I have always strongly opposed. Nor do I believe in extreme humiliation like sending a teenager to school dressed very childishly which would make them a laughing stock. But I agree that clothing punishment if properly used is a very good way to remind teenagers that they still have to do as they are told.

[Sarah K]

I ahevjust imoposed a punishment of this for the first time on my 16 year old daughet about two weeks ago having read some information form the USA.

My daughter decided on her second day studying for her AS levels to get into a fight with another girl with the result that she arrived home with her new uniform of trousers and jacket covered in ud. Luckily she was not caught doing this in the school but I told her that I would be punsihing her and that she would hear what thios would be the next evening. I went to the local school outfitters which provides for many of the local private schools and hence when she arrived home told her how she was to be disciplined.

Firstly our of school a new junior schoolgirl unform to reflect her terrible behaviour - brown loafer shoes, brown knee socks, yellow shirt, brown and yellow stripped tie, a brown knee length skirted and full yoke to hem front buttoning pinafore dress and a brown V-neck school crdigan with yellow trim. Grounded. Bedtime at 8:30 PM. No supper for a week. Confined to her room with no TV, music, pocket money or magazines. She was mortified and when she argued I told her she had just earned herself three extra days. AFter ten days I told her she would have to earn back her clothing privleges and freedom to go out by continuous good behaviour. Currently she is only allowed out with one of use and is now wearing her own school unform at all times i.e. no casula clothes. I was intending to let her have her own clothes back next week but no jeans, T-shorts , etc. Having seen this site I am now wondering whether in fact the next step ought to be dresses or plain skirts only or even some chrity shop clothing?

Anyway she certainly seems to have learnt her lesson and I would recommed this to anyone else. I think it is easy to be lenient but the end consequences are undesirable. In my case I am hoping this has worked as a short sharp shcok but I would not hesitate to use it again - actually even to a limited extebnt with her in public in her uniform if necessary if she continued to misbehave.

Sarah

[Winifred I]

I was asked by someone to provide greater details of the punishments I received and having seen some of those doubting the impact of these approaches I have decided that I will spell out, my severe case of,how I was punished. I would like to say that I had a very strict upbringing and understood the rules and so to those who see my treatment in this extreme case of misbehaviour as harsh I would say it was appropriate in the context of the setting. Whilst I would not advocate that parents should treat their daughters as I was treated I would say that the humiliation of being treated and dressed as a junior schoolgirl was a punishment that I worked hard to avoid and as such was effective in promoting my respectful and correct behavior and unending effort to be academically successful.

I will now list for you my punishment when I committed the following misbehaviors:
i) Returned home after an agreed curfew from a church disco
ii) I had part smoked a cigarette whose stub my parents found in my jacket pocket – I did not admit that I had smoked
iii) I had drunk a small amount of lager – forbidden my parents
iv) I did not admit to my smoking or drinking when asked whether there was anything else I would like to advise my parents of-I lied.

On the Saturday morning having had my lies and avoidance spelled out before me the following punishments were assigned:
i) Out of school to wear junior school uniform at all times: green elasticted long school knickers, grey knee length ribbed socks, Black T-bar shoes, grey starched blouse, green and maroon stripped school tie, maroon worsted pinafore dress reaching below knee length, V neck green woollen waistcoat, V-neck green woollen cardigan.
ii) At night to wear a grey ankle length collared cotton nightgown and maroon woollen thumbless mitts tied to my hands (this was as a specific punishment for using my hands for smoking and drinking)
iii) Grounded
iv) Confined to my room at all times except when eating meals, doing housework, doing humiliating punishments, appearing before visitors
v) To attend Church in public every Sunday in my junior school uniform
vi) To write six sides of lines or a six side essay every week day and twelve sides every Saturday and Sunday on the subject of my misbehaviour and punishment.
vii) Speak only when spoken to.
viii) Bed time 7:45 PM on week days, 6:45 PM Saturday and Sunday. I was to report in front of my whole family including my sisters with my hands on my head (including mitts) and was then sent to bed.
ix) Address everyone else as Sir or Maam.
x) Mouth washed out with carbolic soap every night (specific punishment for failing to tell the truth).
xi) No supper
xii) Extra housework – all laundry and ironing
xiii) No allowance
xiv) Humiliatory punishments on a regular basis e.g. made to face wall or corner with hands-on-head
xv) Corporal punishment. I received punishment to my bare behind on my day of sentence assignment and two further punishments at 2 and 4 weeks to my hands.

I was subject to this dserved penance for 4 weeks. The worst aspect was the public attendance at Church in my junior school uniform. Some people expressed concern to my parents as to the severity of my humiliation but when I was made to explain my disrespect, smoking, drinking and lying most of them said that my parents were doing the right thing and that perhaps 4 weeks was a little lenient. My school friends who saw me laughed with the cruelty of people of that age and my uniform punishment was spread around the school. It drove home the lesson that I must obey all of the rules and that any transgression would be dealt with severely. I had known this but I somehow thought I could for once get away with something but in fact my ill discipline had meant I had failed and so I bore the consequences.

They were the four hardest and most humiliating weeks of my life – I was 17 years old and from that moment until I passed my A levels I strove to do nothing which was not at least in principle in keeping with the rules of my parents and the attainment of academic excellence.

However they were not the end of my penance because although these penances may be seen as harsh by some, as one of your other contributors advised they were part of a programme to improve my behavior they were the direct punishment and they were then followed by further restrictions which required me to demonstrate exemplary behavior over a prolonged period to move back to the norm of my allowed freedoms. They are outlined below:

i) Out of school to be limited to the wearing of items purchased from local charity shops. These to be a dress or skirt/blouse or jumper combinations at all times together with a minimum of a woollen cardigan at all times. The skirt or dress to reach to half-shin or longer, top/dress to be long sleeved and collared. Additional woollen waistcoats or cardigans to be allowed. For the first 8 weeks my clothing to be selected for me by my mother.
ii) Funding for these charity items to be made by selling 15 items from my then wardrobe. These items to be selected by my mother. This meant all of the trousers, all short sleeved tops and skirts/dresses of knee length were sold. I was given the choice of allowing my mother to purchase the items from the charity job or to go to the charity shops myself on a Saturday afternoon in my junior school unifom. I chose not to go to the shops to prevent humiliation but as a result the clothing items which were added to my wardrobe were suitably plain and unfashionable (I will detail them below to show the plainness of my clothing restrictions). This imposition of woollen wearing made me cry – I had always hated wearing them and my parents knew this. I had provided them an opportunity to use my dislike and now deservedly I was bearing the consequence. It also meant in the months after the 8 weeks I was still every day looking into my wardrobe at an array of plain clothing any teenager would have hated.
iii) For the next 8 weeks I was dressed according to my Mother’s from the following items when not at school :
a. Skirts – ankle length black skirt, a bottle green half-shin length pleated waist to hem buttoned skirt
b. Dresses – Ankle length worsted long sleeved grey dress, pale blue knitted below knee length woollen cardigan dress,
c. Blouses – pale blue, grey
d. Woollens – grey round necked knee-length cardigan, bottle green woollen round necked cardigan, V-neck green woollen cardigan, V-neck green woollen waistcoat (part of my junior school uniform), brown collared woollen cardigan knee length jacket, navy V-neck cardigan, waistcoat and knee length collared cardigan.
e. Other items – Brown woollen mitts, brown woollen beret, grey and brown ankle socks
iv) Hair to be worn in a bun at all times
v) Only allowed out of the house when with one of my parents
vi) Bed time set at 8 PM on Saturday and Sunday
vii) Allowance restarted at 20 pence per week and increased thereafter at 30 p per week until it reached 5 pounds per week
viii) I retained responsibility for doing all ironing for the house.

At the end of eight weeks with the exception of my allowance which was still slowly moving upwards my new baseline conditions were established. These provided less freedom than before to ensure that I learnt that such multi-faceted misbehavior had permanent consequences.
i) No attendance at any events after 8PM on a school night.
ii) No more than one outing every 4 weeks. Always to have returned home by 10 PM.
iii) To wear skirts and dresses at all times – no trousers. Self-discipline via obligatory wearing of charity shop cardigan(s) on at least 2 days per week.
iv) Frequent inspections of my room.

This was my punishment for my offences on this occasion. It was severe but then what I had knowingly done broke several clear rules and I had tried to lie and cheat to avoid punishment.

I never again committed such transgressions. I lapsed from the standards of academic excellence expected, was pulled up for inappropriate dress or slovenly behaviour and endured again being but in uniform but for much shorter periods. I would recommend that placing your daughter in a junior school uniform (pinafore or Gingham dress and cardigan) will have a very sobering effect on their behavior and yes it is because it is humiliating and a punishment which should be used when there has been misbehaviour. Although perhaps even more severe having to sell some of your most fashionable clothing so that you can buy a plain dress and baggy cardigan from a charity job to wear in front of your friends was also very effective from my experience.

I hope this is of some help to those of you considering using these approaches. I have tried to answer what I expect the likely questions would be.