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State funeral for Thatcher?

Are the polititians doing a good job could you do better, debate your views with others
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Re: State funeral for Thatcher?

Postby Moira Mac » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:37 pm

More than just Labour classed her as a warmonger, a sizeable chunk of the population did too. Under the Tories around 40 years ago we had power cuts, short working weeks, television channels closing down earlier than they usually did. Later we had profit making steel mills closed by her government in favour of importing from Germany.

The whole of the UK hated the Poll Tax, it was illegally imposed on Scotland a year before the rest of the UK got it. Immigrants take jobs here because UK citizens won't take them, all governments since at least the 50's have had to deal with that.
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Re: State funeral for Thatcher?

Postby ukmav » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:54 pm

@ Moira
More than Labour classed her as a Warmonger? Pray tell what wars what mongering? Only one conflict in her premiership (the Falklands, which was totally and utterly justified), she was also involved in the build up to the first Gulf war but resigned before it got underway. However, this war was again TOTALLY JUSTIFIED and the invasion requested and funded by Kuwait which had been invaded by Iraq and in accordance with all relevant UN resolutions. She opposed the US invasion of Grenada but did allow their planes to utilise our bases when bombing Libya in retaliation for a terrorist attack in a Berlin Discotheque. Hardly a record of starting unnecessary or illegal or unsupported wars.
Bliar on the other hand authorised an invasion or Iraq which was NEVER legal nor did it ever have the backing of the UN it was simply to keep in with Bush (GW) and had the sole purpose of removing Hussein from office. He also lied to parliament and the country in an effort to get us to agree or at least accept his actions. He also ignored or misinterpreted relevant UN resolutions in the process. His war in Afghanistan may have had slightly more legitimacy but was never really ours to fight. Therefore, your lovely fellow scot appears to me to be the warmonger but of course, you could never admit that and allow the Auld enemy to be correct could you?
The whole of Britain did not hate the poll tax, in fact many thought that in principal it was a much fairer way of taxing the local populace than the old style rates or the new style council tax given that each individual in a household who was working or had an income was liable to pay the same amount, so a household with five payed more than a household of two. You would have to look at that in a very strange way to find that unfair, true it was poorly administered, and that was largely what made it unpopular. To say it was illegally introduced into Scotland a year early is simply to show your prejudice.
The three day working week you refer to happened long before Thatcher was in power it was under the government of Edward Heath in the early seventies (72 I believe). I assume by profit making steel industries you mean in the same way that British Rail was profitable only after recieving Billions of pounds in subsidies? Heath was it is true ostensibly a conservative but his views, leadership and effectiveness could not have been much different to Thatcher had he been a Communist dictator. Thatcher replaced Heath as conservative leader when he lost the second election of 72 having failed to gain an overall majority in the first election of that year allowing Labour another attempt at ruining our economy in the process. What Thatcher did was reverse the trend of ruin inflation and poor management that Labour had overseen under successive administrations, that you are unable to admit the good she did for this country only shows your lack of understanding of the problems she inherited and that she tackled. I would never say that everything she did was good but she is certainly the best prime minister of my or your lifetime and probably the second best of all time.
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Re: State funeral for Thatcher?

Postby Moira Mac » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:07 pm

I don't even now where to start with what you got wrong, but as for the poll tax, Scotland has historically always had it's own taxation system, to add another and especially that one made it illegal under Scots law. I have already in previous posts mentioned the three day weeks in Heath's government before now. I was only 8 when she was kicked out of government and Major took over, I was born in June 1982. As far as Scotland is concerned, it will be a few generations from now before Scots will trust another Conservative leader, we are not responsible for this government.

She was in on Lockerbie, sided with Reagan, was late in turning up (the first and only time since world war 2 a serving prime minister turned up after a member of the royal family to a disaster) and her political memoirs failed to mention it, that is wholly unacceptable.

The fact still remains, when she dies, despite her record of good or bad, the people who won't miss her will seriously be outnumbered by those who will.
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Re: State funeral for Thatcher?

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:11 am

[quote="Moira Mac"]The fact still remains, when she dies, despite her record of good or bad, the people who won't miss her will seriously be outnumbered by those who will.[/quote]
Isn't that even more true about you? It has to be.
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Re: State funeral for Thatcher?

Postby ukmav » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:16 am

I would suggest that as you were only 8 when she left government my recollections are somewhat more accurate than yours given I am 20 years older. When you can really argue facts rather than what someone told you maybe you would like to think about where to start in telling me what I got wrong.
You keep trying to assert that Scotland has its own taxation system, how is this possible when you pay the same income tax, national insurance, VAT, death duties etc etc as the rest of the UK when your taxation system is goverened by the same laws as the rest of the UK when UK tax offices for England are sited in Scotland and vice versa? It may be something which comes about in the next few years, personally I would be happy to see Scotland leave the UK and become totally independant but don't then expect the billions you currently get from London in subsidies.
You also keep going on about Lockerbie, whilst I am not in any way belittleing the incident, that one thing hardly defines her premiership I would have thought also that for her to be willing to avenge this act would not be war mongering but justice. Who was it that ordered the release of the only person convicted over that crime in any case?
Given, that you fail to answer any of my points directly, in fact you fail to address any of them at all I can only summise you argue from a position of emotion rather than fact.
I am happy to see you do recognise that more people will miss her than won't when she does finally die.
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Re: State funeral for Thatcher?

Postby Moira Mac » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:26 pm

People can be authorities on World War 2, without having to been there or born at the time. There are plenty of documentary channels and programmes to watch and books to read. You really do need to educate yourself on Scottish ways before saying much more, or give up while you are still behind. We may get 'billions', possibly,from Westminster, but Scots give Westminster just over a billion a year in revenue from whisky alone. University fees are free to Scots students because it's paid for through taxation, we went prescription fee free because we pay for it through taxation whether you are permanently ill or not. We have our own education system. My eldest sister is a police officer, Gillian is well aware of law differences between the countries.

People who are family of the victims of Flight 103 don't believe Megrahi did it. One of the main campaigners to find the actual person responsible, Dr Jim Swire, lost his daughter on that flight, he doesn't believe he Megrahi did it. What use is a terminally ill man in a prison cell, apart from being a drain on our NHS? Go drain someone elses. He couldn't even be tried in Scotland, it had to go to the Netherlands.

We are not goverened by all the same laws, we have 'Scots Law'. You are wrong again. Even parking in hospitals became free again due to the way the NHS works here, the upkeep is paid for in the savings made since the smoking ban in public places (implemented in Scotland a year before the rest of the UK) came into force. My sister is a nurse, so before you start barking that I'm wrong.......

Our deputy first minister, who is also our Health Minister, Nicola Sturgeon negotiated it.

As of today, only 34% of those legible to vote want independence, it rarely goes higher than that, in fact, since the last general election it has risen by a massive 1%!

It's a bit pointless arguing directly with someone who doesn't actually live here, yet tries to tell me what it is like here.
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Re: State funeral for Thatcher?

Postby Moira Mac » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:26 pm

Consider yourself as thick as the proverbial stuff that comes out the back end of a dog.... I'm being told what it's like to live in Scotland by someone who doesn't. I may not have been here for part of Thatcher's rule of terror, but I do have parents, aunts, uncles etc who were.
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Re: State funeral for Thatcher?

Postby Moira Mac » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:00 pm

That's news to me, and others. You are a first class scholionophobe.
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Re: State funeral for Thatcher?

Postby Guest » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:20 am

Stop with your pish, Moira. It's giving me and others a headache.
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Re: State funeral for Thatcher?

Postby ukmav » Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:23 am

I am just a tad curious, where did I state that all laws in Scotland were the same as those in England or indeed the rest of the UK? I am well aware that there are differences and that there are probably sound reasons for these differences even if I am not fully aware of what all the differences or reasons are, I don't need to be as I don't live, work, invest in, or have any other reason to make myself aware of any specific legal differences between England and Scotland although buying a house there was a reasonably interesting experience. If you read my last post properly, which I doubt from your reply, you would have seen that I phrased this kind of point as a question rather than a statement, I am fully aware that I am do not know everything. I also accept that people can be authorities on matters which happened long before their birth however the problem with gaining one's knowledge from sources other than experience is that it is always tainted with the preconceptions of the author, history after all tends to be written by the victors indeed knowledge gained through experience is also tainted by the view of the individual but to a lesser extent largely. I am sure the history of World war two would be very different if written from a German perspective, so forgive me if I don't take your somewhat jaundiced views on Margaret Thatcher too seriously.
Your free to user services, of which I am well aware, I imagine you are acquainted with the envy with which they are viewed in England, may well be paid for through taxation the question is whose taxation? I know what your answer will be but I would have to question the ability of a nation of the size of Scotland to be able to afford to do these things, laudable though they are, simply through taxation of its own population without punitive rates of taxation, the numbers simply do not add up. I would point out, as I am sure, you need me to that that is not in any way intended as a slight on Scotland but is simply bald economic and mathematical truth.
Your sister, who I am sure is an admirable WPC, forgive me if I have her rank incorrect but that is what you implied, is undoubtedly aware of some of the differences in legal procedures and interpretation as well as laws through her training but I doubt that any police personnel at any level are fully aware of all the laws of the country they serve let alone neighbouring countries, my own cousin is a deputy commissioner in the metropolitan police and he certainly is not by his own admission. That having been said the laws of the two countries are broadly speaking very similar.
I was not arguing as to the culpability of Megrahi for this crime merely that he was the only person who had been convicted of it. Given Gadaffi's behaviour, it is entirely possibly that Megrahi had fallen out of favour and was set up by the then Libyan dictator. That the case was tried in the Netherlands is a political fact of life, most if not all European terrorists of this scale are tried there, I doubt that this in itself affects the validity of the verdict especially as it was reached by no less than three Scottish judges, I believe using Scottish law. Perhaps we should take a leaf out of the Scottish prison service's book and repatriate all foreign prisoners when they become ill just to save a few pounds, dollars or Euros?
Where did I mention being charged for parking in Hospitals? Where did I mention that a majority of Scottish people want complete autonomy from England? I simply stated that I would not be unhappy to see it come about. Where did I mention any of the imagined slights you seem to be accusing me of?
I have not told you what it is like in Scotland I have not attempted to do so nor would I given that I am English and live for the most part in England I have little knowledge of what Scotland is like although the parts I have visited are beautiful. I reiterate that the comments you seem to have taken exception to were phrased as questions that implies a lack of knowledge on my part and a wish to find additional information, sadly you have failed to supply that information.
I can only conclude from your short enormously bitter and inaccurate second post in reply to me that you have given up trying to argue coherently, if indeed that was ever your intention, and have resorted to attempting to insult me. Far better people than you have tried the same, it has very little effect on me, if you are willing to take a modicum of advice I would suggest that you do not waste your time or effort in doing so you are the only one it will bother and I am sure you have far better things to do with your life such as it is.
Still it has been awfully interesting seeing your views, incorrect, prejudiced, and second-hand as they are I hope to be able to discuss other issues with you at some point in the future.
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Re: State funeral for Thatcher?

Postby Moira Mac » Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:37 am

ukmav wrote:You keep trying to assert that Scotland has its own taxation system, how is this possible when you pay the same income tax, national insurance, VAT, death duties etc etc as the rest of the UK when your taxation system is goverened by the same laws as the rest of the UK when UK tax offices for England are sited in Scotland and vice versa? It may be something which comes about in the next few years, personally I would be happy to see Scotland leave the UK and become totally independant but don't then expect the billions you currently get from London in subsidies.


We are medical prescription free because of our taxation system. We have free school meals because of it too. Our end of the NHS works differently even if it is still goverened from Westminster.

If you call me a liar when there are sources to back me up, then you have lost straight away. I've been told what it's like living in Scotland by people who don't, that is unbelievably patronising. Just because some of my information may be second hand, doesn't make it wrong. I made a hobby out of my country's recent past (from 1939 up to the present) through taking an interest in it at school.

I can't be bothered with you any more. I didn't even read about 99.9% of what you just put.
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Re: State funeral for Thatcher?

Postby ukmav » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:32 pm

Choosing to spend money raised through taxation in a different way does NOT equal a different taxation system, your rates of taxation are currently set by Westminster was the point I was making , admittedly that may change, but it is currently the case, the scottish parliament has certain limited powers in terms of how its revenue is used. To ascertain that this means you have a different taxation system only highlights your lack of understanding.
I did not call you a liar, that you accused me of doing so is no surprise, I was not patronising you I was questioning your knowledge and or statements.
To resort to name calling and cheap jibes only shows you have no real argument and have admitted to yourself at least that you can not argue against me.
I do hope the next time we share a thread you can put forward a more reasoned and sound argument for me to challenge.
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Re: State funeral for Thatcher?

Postby DanMc » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:24 pm

Well the old brass bat has finally gone. Cue grovelling extended news coverage about what a wonderful person she was.
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Re: State funeral for Thatcher?

Postby ukmav » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:59 pm

She will not have a state funeral but will be accorded the same status as Princess Diana and the Queen Mother with full military honours, which will take place at London's St Paul's Cathedral.
The fact reamains she was the last great statesman of the 20th Century and I very much doubt I shall see her equal in my lifetime should I live to be 200. Truly the greatest Primeminister of the 20th Century.
God rest her soul
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Re: State funeral for Thatcher?

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