Help me, I'm 16 and I'm pregnant!

[Guest]

MissD: Sex is fun (I didn't say anything about abortion being 'fun' though )
Not the only way to have an abortion either but what else would you expect from someone who clearly has no experience of this

So lets get this straight, you have sex because it is fun, yet you know sex can result in pregnancy, but still you are prepared to kill another human in exchange for fun.

Your priorities are messed up.

MissD: It's not a person, it's an embryo/fetus (difference). Frankly I couldn't care less if it has it's own DNA etc.. - if it's so individual then give me a c-section and send the fetus on it's way

So you believe it is an individual, but not a person, well I might add that personhood is very much subjective, and yet you are prepared to kill your daughter or son based on your particular subjective view of personhood. However if your son could survive outside of your womb (or his sanctuary) then you will keep him if not then you will let him die, that is a nice way to treat your own kind. But what is sick is that you know he will die outside of your womb yet you are prepared to have him removed anyway. Furthermore, if it were possible for him to survive outside the womb you would not have the abortion in the first place, that is really cracked up.

MissD: First off sweetheart, why don't you try reading instead of making things up. I have never once questioned whether or not a fetus is human (of course it is), neither have I defined personhood.
Has the man in the coma ever been aware - yes, has he lived independantly - yes
(But we can actually withdraw ventilating machines if he's soely dependant on them)
Bad analogy

No, no, no, you said: “A person is someone who is aware of what is going on around them, and can feel pain”. A man in a coma is neither aware of what is going on around him nor can he feel pain. So either the man in a coma is not a person, or your reason for abortion is flawed.

MissD: The contents of my uterus are you business?? Well remind me to run my decisions past you the next time I get pregnant

So if I use my hands to strangle someone, I can say that it is none of your business because these hands are mine, not yours? Sure, that is really justified.

MissD: No I don't - please don't insinuate falsities from my statements. I don't recognise the fetus as a person, I am fully aware it's human (as opposed to cat or something)

So you believe in killing humans.

MissD:And here we have the holocaust analogy...how original trying to make out abortion is a genocide

I have never claimed abortion is genocide but I will claim it is a holocaust.

[MissD]

So lets get this straight, you have sex because it is fun

Correct

yet you know sex can result in pregnancy

Yes, I also know that there is only a certain time each month you can actually get pregnant and that contraception greatly reduces the chances of conceiving

but still you are prepared to kill another human in exchange for fun.

It would depend upon the situation but no I don not see anything wrong with terminating a pregnancy (and by 'another human' you mean a zygote embryo or fetus so no I don't see a problem with that)

Your priorities are messed up.

Did I say I would definately have an abortion? Or are you just assuming that because I am pro-choice.

So you believe it is an individual

Again, drawing inferences from things I say. I haven't said it's an individual - it certainly isn't individual in the way you or I are (in that it cannot live an independant existence)

you are prepared to kill your daughter or son based on your particular subjective view of personhood.

Yes, lets keep with the emotive language
We're back to that little thing that governs us called the law

f your son could survive outside of your womb (or his sanctuary) then you will keep him if not then you will let him die

I didn't say that, I said I'd reconsider my position but as it's hypothetical and a fetus needs a womb to survive I think it's perfectly legitimate that the owner of that womb decides whether or not she wants to be pregnant

As for the rest of that speil you are making many assumptions concerning an entirely hypothetical situation.

I wasn't defining personhood I was giving an example of how a fetus isn't a person

So if I use my hands to strangle someone, I can say that it is none of your business because these hands are mine, not yours? Sure, that is really justified.

Another terrible analogy, you cannot compare strangling someone to having an abortion because the situations are entirely different. You strangling someone effects/harms a sentient person, me having an abortion doesn't

So you believe in killing humans

I believe in aborting human zygotes, embryos and fetuses only

I will claim it is a holocaust.

The holocaust was a genocide, the two are inextricable and abortion is neither

[Guest]

with the new 3 D ultrasounds they now know a fetus as young as 12 weeks along sucks its thumb and reacts by moving around after the mother eats. no they are not fully awear of what is going on but they are not just a clump of cells it is a tiny person. if someone does not want a baby then they dont need to take the risk of getting pregnant. you play you pay plain and simple. if you do get pregnant and dont want kids then give it up for adoption ya you may have to gain some weight and deal with the pains of labor that is just the price people need to be willing to pay if they are not then take all the steps to not get pregnant I know people will say you can get pregnant on birth controll but the pill is over 99% effective if you add a condom and spermicide you have a better chance of winning the lotto than getting knocked up.

[TipsyDipsy]

with the new 3 D ultrasounds they now know a fetus as young as 12 weeks along sucks its thumb and reacts by moving around after the mother eats. no they are not fully awear of what is going on but they are not just a clump of cells it is a tiny person. if someone does not want a baby then they dont need to take the risk of getting pregnant. you play you pay plain and simple. if you do get pregnant and dont want kids then give it up for adoption ya you may have to gain some weight and deal with the pains of labor that is just the price people need to be willing to pay if they are not then take all the steps to not get pregnant I know people will say you can get pregnant on birth controll but the pill is over 99% effective if you add a condom and spermicide you have a better chance of winning the lotto than getting knocked up.

Hear Hear Truer words were never spoken

[MissD]

with the new 3 D ultrasounds they now know a fetus as young as 12 weeks along sucks its thumb and reacts by moving around after the mother eats.

Reactions to stimuli, they don't have the capacity to be 'aware' or feel pain
just because I can see them in 3D doesn't alter the fact I'm pro-choice

they are not just a clump of cells it is a tiny person

I am aware they are not just a 'clump of cells', I am aware of what an embryo/fetus is

if you do get pregnant and dont want kids then give it up for adoption

There's the inconveinience of being pregnant for 9months.
If someone wants to continue their pregnancy and give the child up for adoption I have the utmost respect for that decision. I also appreciate though that some people don't wish to do this and I respect that too

I know people will say you can get pregnant on birth controll but the pill is over 99% effective if you add a condom and spermicide you have a better chance of winning the lotto than getting knocked up.

The effectiveness of pill depends upon many things, some (POP) are around 96% effective as opposed to being over 99%. And yes it is entirely possible to get pregnant using this or any hormonal birth control (I've been there)
Condoms are pretty unreliable (I remember being told by a gynae that most unplanned pregnancies in young people 16-24 were a result of condom failure), what if people can't use condoms and cannot afford to buy the non-latex ones for everytime they have sex (it's going to be pretty expensive)
People can have irritations to spremicide, people may be unable to use hormonal birth control. There are many reasons why it's simply not practical to assume everyone who doesn't want a child should be using 3 contraceptive methods everytime they have sex

[Guest]

gen·o·cide
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.
hol·o·caust
Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life

So abortion is a holocaust whether you believe the foetus to be a human, a person, creatures or ants or any other living thing.

It is an individual because it has its own DNA, once it is destroyed, that human will never be seen again, they may have been the one that held the solution to world peace, or the maker of the most perfect music, or the cure for all cancers or any other great achievement, but since they get butchered to death at the hands of their mothers, we will never know.

You believe in killing humans, in order to evade your natural maternal duty that was bestowed upon you at conception. Since it is just the sex you want, not your son or daughter.

[Guest]

with the new 3 D ultrasounds they now know a fetus as young as 12 weeks along sucks its thumb and reacts by moving around after the mother eats.

Reactions to stimuli, they don't have the capacity to be 'aware' or feel pain
just because I can see them in 3D doesn't alter the fact I'm pro-choice

they are not just a clump of cells it is a tiny person

I am aware they are not just a 'clump of cells', I am aware of what an embryo/fetus is

if you do get pregnant and dont want kids then give it up for adoption

There's the inconveinience of being pregnant for 9months.
If someone wants to continue their pregnancy and give the child up for adoption I have the utmost respect for that decision. I also appreciate though that some people don't wish to do this and I respect that too

I know people will say you can get pregnant on birth controll but the pill is over 99% effective if you add a condom and spermicide you have a better chance of winning the lotto than getting knocked up.

The effectiveness of pill depends upon many things, some (POP) are around 96% effective as opposed to being over 99%. And yes it is entirely possible to get pregnant using this or any hormonal birth control (I've been there)
Condoms are pretty unreliable (I remember being told by a gynae that most unplanned pregnancies in young people 16-24 were a result of condom failure), what if people can't use condoms and cannot afford to buy the non-latex ones for everytime they have sex (it's going to be pretty expensive)
People can have irritations to spremicide, people may be unable to use hormonal birth control. There are many reasons why it's simply not practical to assume everyone who doesn't want a child should be using 3 contraceptive methods everytime they have sex

I relize you are pro choice you have made that clear you believe people have the right to act unresponsable and make unborn children pay for it. i think it is sad that their are people who think the way you do. just becouse something is legal does not make it moral. some people think it is ok to have sex with children or drown puppys it is even legal in some places but I dont think it is right their are alot of things that are legal that are not right. and get real non latex condoms are not that expensive they are about 2 bucks a box more. if someone cant afford that they cant even afford the gas to get to the abortion clinic. I dont think it is unreasanable to ecpect people to use multable types of birth controll, cant use spericide fine get a IUD. if you already have one kid and dont want more have your tubes tide. if someone does not want kids their are alot of steps people can take to prevent it. I have known several people to get abortions and none of them were taking any real procautions. and I doubt if most abortions are done becouse of faulty birth controll they are due to people being lazy, carless and selfish.

[Guest]

with the new 3 D ultrasounds they now know a fetus as young as 12 weeks along sucks its thumb and reacts by moving around after the mother eats.

Reactions to stimuli, they don't have the capacity to be 'aware' or feel pain
just because I can see them in 3D doesn't alter the fact I'm pro-choice

they are not just a clump of cells it is a tiny person

I am aware they are not just a 'clump of cells', I am aware of what an embryo/fetus is

if you do get pregnant and dont want kids then give it up for adoption

There's the inconveinience of being pregnant for 9months.
If someone wants to continue their pregnancy and give the child up for adoption I have the utmost respect for that decision. I also appreciate though that some people don't wish to do this and I respect that too

I know people will say you can get pregnant on birth controll but the pill is over 99% effective if you add a condom and spermicide you have a better chance of winning the lotto than getting knocked up.

The effectiveness of pill depends upon many things, some (POP) are around 96% effective as opposed to being over 99%. And yes it is entirely possible to get pregnant using this or any hormonal birth control (I've been there)
Condoms are pretty unreliable (I remember being told by a gynae that most unplanned pregnancies in young people 16-24 were a result of condom failure), what if people can't use condoms and cannot afford to buy the non-latex ones for everytime they have sex (it's going to be pretty expensive)
People can have irritations to spremicide, people may be unable to use hormonal birth control. There are many reasons why it's simply not practical to assume everyone who doesn't want a child should be using 3 contraceptive methods everytime they have sex

I relize you are pro choice you have made that clear you believe people have the right to act unresponsable and make unborn children pay for it. i think it is sad that their are people who think the way you do. just becouse something is legal does not make it moral. some people think it is ok to have sex with children or drown puppys it is even legal in some places but I dont think it is right their are alot of things that are legal that are not right. and get real non latex condoms are not that expensive they are about 2 bucks a box more. if someone cant afford that they cant even afford the gas to get to the abortion clinic. I dont think it is unreasanable to ecpect people to use multable types of birth controll, cant use spericide fine get a IUD. if you already have one kid and dont want more have your tubes tide. if someone does not want kids their are alot of steps people can take to prevent it. I have known several people to get abortions and none of them were taking any real procautions. and I doubt if most abortions are done becouse of faulty birth controll they are due to people being lazy, carless and selfish.

PS I also think people should have the right to do what they want with their bodies as long as it does not effect anyone else in a negitive way and abortion does effect the unborn child in the most negitive way. If someone had aids should they be allowed to sleep with unknowing partners becouse it is their body.

[The-Prophet]

i'm just wondering guest, if you had a dog that got ran over and was in pain no matter what was given to it put down?

[TipsyDipsy]

i'm just wondering guest, if you had a dog that got ran over and was in pain no matter what was given to it put down?

I don't get the comparison between that and a debate about abortion

[MissD]

So abortion is a holocaust

I personally wouldn't descirbe abortion as a 'great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life' so abortion is a holocaust in your opinion

whether you believe the foetus to be a human

It is rediculous to even suggest that people do not see the fetus as human, it is not a different species I think everyone can understand that

It is an individual because it has its own DNA once it is destroyed, that human will never be seen again

And that's all it needs to be an individual? Does that mean a hydatidiform mole is individual and shouldn't be destroyed? (if unique DNA is all you require)

they may have been the one that held the solution to world peace, or the maker of the most perfect music, or the cure for all cancers or any other great achievement

They may also have been the next Hitler/Stalin/Mussolini

in order to evade your natural maternal duty that was bestowed upon you at conception

So every woman suddenly has maternal instincts at conception

[Guest]

i'm just wondering guest, if you had a dog that got ran over and was in pain no matter what was given to it put down?

I don't get the comparison between that and a debate about abortion

I agree one has nothing to do with the other yes if the dog was suffering with no chance of servival I would have it put down I feel that it would be the right thing to do but a fetus is not suffering if it is not aborded and is in a healthy body it has a exlent chance of sevival. to me someone saying they want a abortion becouse pregnancy is a hassle and it is ok becouse the fetus would not servive with out them is like me saying it is a hassle to get up in the morning to feed my 10 mounth old daughter and sence she is unable to servive with out me it would be ok for me to just dump her in the trash. its crazy if people dont want kids then dont get pregnant its that eazy if you do get pregnant and dont want it give it up for adoption. now like that suffering dog if the pregnancy is putting the mothers life in extream risk or the child has no chance of servival then yes I feel an abortion is ok under those conditions but abortion should not be used for birthcontrol becouse someone thinks sex feels better without a condom or that their boyfriend left them.

[MissD]

I relize you are pro choice you have made that clear you believe people have the right to act unresponsable and make unborn children pay for it.

Emotional babble, some people actually believe that abortion may well be the responsible thing to do in their situation - unless you're there you cannot make that call

i think it is sad that their are people who think the way you do

I think it's sad there are people who think like you

just becouse something is legal does not make it moral

Didn't say it did, I have my position regardless of the legality of it (and morality is subjective so please don't try and take a moral highground)

some people think it is ok to have sex with children or drown puppys it is even legal in some places but I dont think it is right their are alot of things that are legal that are not right.

I don't think that's right either, as I've said - I don't form my opinions simply on the legality of them

and get real non latex condoms are not that expensive they are about 2 bucks a box more

Depends on sex drive - the cost sure can add up (and non-latex are available free at the fpc)

I dont think it is unreasanable to ecpect people to use multable types of birth control

I don't either but you cannot dictate peoples sex lives to them - if they only want to use condoms then fine, that's their choice (being in a free society and all)

cant use spericide fine get a IUD

I have an IUS but it's rather troublesome so thinking of getting it removed, some people cannot use IUD's (me for one - heavy periods and all)

if you already have one kid and dont want more have your tubes tide.

Again, that's not something you can dictate to women, people change their minds

I doubt if most abortions are done becouse of faulty birth controll they are due to people being lazy, carless and selfish.

Well, try speaking to some of the women I have and you'll get a different picture

PS I also think people should have the right to do what they want with their bodies as long as it does not effect anyone else in a negitive way and abortion does effect the unborn child in the most negitive way

Again, an overly simplistic view of abortion and over compensating for the abilities of the fetus

If someone had aids should they be allowed to sleep with unknowing partners becouse it is their body.

The crime is called biological GBH and it wrong to knowingly infect another perosn with any virus.

I don't get the comparison between that and a debate about abortion

Abortion for fetal abnormality

[MissD]

its crazy if people dont want kids then dont get pregnant its that eazy if you do get pregnant and dont want it give it up for adoption.

Like I've said it isn't that simple and some women don't want to go through pregnancy.
I would support any choice a woman makes regarding her pregnancy

[Guest]

its crazy if people dont want kids then dont get pregnant its that eazy if you do get pregnant and dont want it give it up for adoption.

Like I've said it isn't that simple and some women don't want to go through pregnancy.
I would support any choice a woman makes regarding her pregnancy

thats great that you would seport anyones choice regarding their pregnancy but I still feel the that if a women does not want to go through prenancy then she should not get pregnant. I relize you think women have the right to put themselves before all others i feel that if people take the risk of getting pregnant then they should be held acountable for the life of the unborn child. people need to take resposabilaty for their actions.