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New Labour & the BNP: Two Sides Of The Same Zi

Discuss Social and Political issues that are affecting you. Bash the Politicians!
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80 posts • Page 5 of 6 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Postby Barnacle Bill » Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:10 am

I made a mistake trying to get "quote="Barnacle Bill" ,and edited my original posting,but the argument was over this section anyway,so it doesn't matter too much.
mogadishu wrote:uot;]yep. he also said stephen lawrence was not a high achieving innocent who was brutally murdered but a lowlife drug dealer who got schoolkids addicted to crack. so as you can see, this wise man speaks nothing but the truth.


Barnacle Bill wrote:I never knew Stephen Lawrence, and probably nor did you; therefore, how do you know there is no truth in the statement made by Griffin, who might have received his information from someone who knew Lawrence?


I was not saying that Lawrence was or was not anything(therefore,in that case,I was not employing Argumentum ad Ignorantium,according to Mogadishu's definition:the source of the fallacy is that something is true until proven otherwise.), but that Mogadishu was calling someone 'a liar'(or in more legal language, a slanderer or a libeller, NB libel may be a crime) without possibly knowing all the information. As I said in my previous post, many people with a political agenda tell lies, but that doesn’t mean everything they say is a lie.Innocent, till known otherwise, I thought. Incidentally,Griffin has a degree in law, so he should know a little about the law,and high achieving people can sell drugs.
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Postby buttons » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:01 pm

...
Last edited by buttons on Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby buttons » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:29 pm

:arrow:
Last edited by buttons on Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Clark Fashion » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:29 pm

is it just me, or has this whole thread descended into argumentum ad nauseam?

:lol:
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Postby mogadishu » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:36 pm

to say it at all is slander, unless you hacve evidence to back it up. ok? it's no more informative than any other idle speculation.
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Postby mogadishu » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:46 pm

The burden of proof was on you, not me.


No buttons - that's the whole point. Where allegations of a serious nature are made against a public figure, the burden is always on the person making the claim, or the persons making a defence for the persons making that claim. It's not something you can just decide to place on someone else, if you've actually been trained in argument.
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Postby buttons » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:33 pm

..
Last edited by buttons on Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby buttons » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:39 pm

.. :Dlll
Last edited by buttons on Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby mogadishu » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:24 pm

Until Griffin presents his argument in full, as it is incumbent upon him to do, he is slandering Lawrence, as the burden of proof in English law is upon the person making the accusations to prove them.

Quite separately from that, anyone who defends someone's right to say something baseless on the grounds that the claim can't be disproved is arguing ad ignorantium. You obviously don't understand either point, so i have nothing more to say on this matter.
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Postby buttons » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:42 pm

.......p
Last edited by buttons on Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby mogadishu » Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:48 pm

But you have no evidence he wasn't a drug dealer apart from evidence that may be biased.


People are innocent until proven guilty. I have no evidence you aren't a pedophile, but I'm guilty of slander if I suggest you are even so. Law isn't a vacuum where the dial reverts to neutral. Nor should the burden be upon you to prove you aren't. By your logic, it's ok for me to publish allegations on the web that you're a pedophile, because noone has proved that you aren't.

In practice it may well be more difficult to bring an action of slander against a dead person. Griffin's remarks are defamotory even so. Nice to see him picking on people who can't answer back (again).

Griffin may in Law be slandering Lawrence

Jesus Christ. That was like getting blood out of a stone. It's in law that I'm talking about.
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Postby buttons » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:32 pm

mno
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Postby mogadishu » Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:09 am

Griffin,however, may have evidence that Lawrence did deal drugs.
in the eyes of the law, he hasn't, unless he goes on the record with it. when he accused Lawrence he was accusing in the eyes of the law an innocent man.
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Postby buttons » Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:34 am

... :!:
Last edited by buttons on Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby mogadishu » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:20 am

You're talking utter nonsense. He was prosecuted for making the speeches.

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=730&id=172912006

He's on record making defamatory remarks in the public domain.

you can not call someone a liar without hearing his case


in this is the whole point - legally a defamtory remark is false until proven true. so in the eyes of the law his remarks are false unless he proves them true.

But you have no evidence that I am.
Well you would say that, wouldn't you? I might have evidence against you I'm holding on to privately.
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