The Strangeness of this Forum.....Continues Into 2013

[Lena]

I agree with everything you wrote

Information /opinions about other countries is always interesting /educational/and fun.

Please post more, you can count on moi always reading .

[Topic Of Gossip]

I agree with everything you wrote

Information /opinions about other countries is always interesting /educational/and fun.

Please post more, you can count on moi always reading .

Will do!

You know it's always important to keep abreast of what's happening in other countries, especially in this climate. You never know which one the Government will be invading next!

[Lena]

Too true

[Shona1969]

Interesting read. I've just joined the forum today and am from the UK, i'm certainly interested in politics and am left leaning and happy to be called a socialist although I think the word actually covers a much wider range of thought than most would give credit to, and I certainly recognise it has a much more radical meaning in America than perhaps it does in the UK. For example I'm a million miles away from being a Marxist revolutionary, and am happy to acknowledge that capitalist free-markets are a good way of driving change and creating wealth. I think the question is what happens to that wealth once its been created, but that's a long and detailed discussion.

In the meantime, i'd just like to say hi, and that I love following American politics especially the whole election process. I'm also genuinely fascinated in how polorised the debates over the pond seem to be, so if you don't mind I may pop up from time to time and ask questions, but certainly hope to take part in more UK based discussiuons as well.

[tidho]

...For example I'm a million miles away from being a Marxist revolutionary, and am happy to acknowledge that capitalist free-markets are a good way of driving change and creating wealth. I think the question is what happens to that wealth once its been created, but that's a long and detailed discussion...

...I do believe you've found a perfectly good first thread topic.
Welcome.

[Topic Of Gossip]

Interesting read. I've just joined the forum today and am from the UK, i'm certainly interested in politics and am left leaning and happy to be called a socialist although I think the word actually covers a much wider range of thought than most would give credit to, and I certainly recognise it has a much more radical meaning in America than perhaps it does in the UK.

Welcome Shona!

I think in the USA Socialism is considered only a stone's throw away from Communism. Indeed, I would say many Americans see them as exactly the same ideology and have been known to come out in a cold sweat by the mere mention of the word... 'Socialist'.

What we would term Socialism in the UK and Europe is certainly a lot broader and milder than how the US see it. I suppose you have to look at America's relationship with Communism (aka Socialism) over the decades to understand the vehement attitude. From McCarthyism to the Cuban Missile Crisis, Cold War and even the Space Race, Communism has been viewed as their constant foe and source of many of their problems. It's not too dissimilar to the UK's view of Fascism and all that entails e.g. WWII, Battle of Britain etc. and is probably why the majority of Britons generally have a hostile attitude to the extreme Far Right.

America is all about winning and as far as many of their countrymen and women are concerned nobody wins under a Communism/Socialism ideology. That's my take on it anyway.

[Shona1969]

I agree with everying you'ver said and think you summed it up nicely. My parents lived in the US for 5 or 6 years so we took several family trips there and travelled to different parts and always had very interesting discussions with Americans about politics (one of my neighbours and best friends is also American - and a Labour Councillor to boot), Americans generally do seem to have an understandably negative view of communism which does spill over to us poor old social reformers as well. I never understood how George Orwell's Animal Farm was misread in America to be anti-socialist. Orwell was a socialist through and through and his complaint was more about the betrayal of the communist revolution rather than an argument for free-market liberalism which some have suggested. His view was based in part on his witnessing the communist in-fighting towards the end of the Spanish War in which he fought for a small communist unit on the side of the elected Government (there was no other unit available to him at the time he signed up). John Stienbeck as well, who is regarded as one of America's greatest writers and is held up as a hero, was a great social commentator and I wonder if all of his American fans have read The Grapes of Wrath and in particular In Dubious Battle both of which have clear socialist leanings, but this is perhaps the problem with labels. Its nice and easy for us to pidgeon hole ourselves and others as belonging to one particular group or another, and for us to judge what someone has to say simply on which camp they belong to, but in real life its never that simple and at the end of the day most of us actually want the same things for ourselves and each other, its surely just the various shades of grey between us that highlight the different routes we think we should take to get there.

[Topic Of Gossip]

Good post Shona.

I always think that the fact children don't work up chimneys any more; many workers now get a decent wage and most women around the world now have a vote, probably wouldn't have been the case if it was purely down to the forces of... Conservatism.

I think it's quite ironic that Socialism has historically played a major role in giving most Americans the very rights and freedoms that they now cherish but fear will be destroyed by... Socialism.

It's no different to an atheist believing that all religion is bad; never mind the fact that they have benefited from religion and indeed are living in a world that has been forged by it.

There is good and bad in everything and at the extremes all political ideologies can be dangerous. Most Western democracies now practise a combination of Socialism, Liberalism and Conservatism. Having that mix of ideologies is a good thing I think. Hopefully we can take the best ideas from each.

[tidho]

I don't recall being taught that the message of Animal Farm was anti-socialism. More about propoganda and corruption.

As for socialism, the battle against it isn't to completely obliterate all aspects of it in government. For isntance conservative politicians aren't trying to end Social Security, or Medicare. What they're doing is fighting for the acceptance of the economic realities associated with those programs.

[Topic Of Gossip]

As for socialism, the battle against it isn't to completely obliterate all aspects of it in government. For isntance conservative politicians aren't trying to end Social Security, or Medicare. What they're doing is fighting for the acceptance of the economic realities associated with those programs.

Hmmm... I don't know? I think ideologically if Conservative politicians could get rid of Social Security and benefit programs without becoming unpopular, they would do.

[franfran]

Politics section used to be dominated by hordes of left-wingers, but they behaved very badly for a long period of time and got themselves banned.

What about Fred? he was hardly a left winger.

I think the politics section more or less died after Stalfos tried to take it over.....

[DanMc]

Politics section used to be dominated by hordes of left-wingers, but they behaved very badly for a long period of time and got themselves banned.

What about Fred? he was hardly a left winger.

I think the politics section more or less died after Stalfos tried to take it over.....

Obviously I know who he refers to, but in my opinion they got themselves banned by being needlessly offensive not, at least I hope, by being left-wing otherwise I should probably get my coat. In any case there weren't hordes of them, just a few. Since I've been here far from this section being dominated by left-wingers, the predominant theme has been how wonderful Bush was and from the day he became president Obama's shortcomings. Sadly British politics hardly gets a mention.

The views of Stalfos were worryingly close to those of Anders Breivik, he was a dangerous bigoted clown. Fred expressed some rather nasty sentiments, but fundamentally he was a wind-up artist who delighted in outraging others, doubtless including me. Unlike the real hardline right-wing nutters he did show a sense of humour from time to time. I think the reason he drifted away in the end was that people were almost starting to like him and he wasn't here for that, he wanted to shock and outrage what he would have called "liberals".

[franfran]

I actually came across Fred on another forum some months after he left FF. We exchanged a few PMs after I recognised who he was. His posts there were pretty much the same as what he used to post here. He eventually got banned though, as that forum is much more strictly moderated than FF ever has been - I even got a warning for one of my posts...

[ILWL]

A UK site but never really any mention of UK politics .................

For the most part this forum has instead been dominated by we Americans , mostly right wing Americans too with liberal & informed moi being the exception .

Wud hope to see more posts about British and European matters .

I tend to find discussion on politics is either dogmatic or simply a case of mud slinging / cheer leading. Wonder if people might be better off simply going to a football match and cheering on their team. Might have some good . there as well with a slight prospect of some thuggery.

Is it really a case that political discussion as far as we peasants are concerned is based largely on us parroting some rythmn or soundbite that struck some relativist chord with us or our parents. To a lesser extent it is based on bread though few people admit that they begrudge people having the same amount as them. To put it another way - I need more stimulation and demand better material to consume. Guess what, I don't want to pay for it either! The exchange or barter would be 'This is my truth...tell me your's' / 'Let me show you the world in my eyes'.

How about we admit that so far the best books are the ones that have told us what we already know and admit that through this we have learned very little, if indeed we have drawn the right conclusions. Has there ever been an answer - is there always someone else to follow?

I have no desire to lead or be a mere pawn; but make no mistake I hope I would have the capacity to make the appropriate choice if the circumstances were inopportune.

Now for me the question of what this is about is somewhat rhetorical. This being a whim, a project, my manifesto or simply and merely my inner monologue). Conceit and kiddology aside the expected reaction is WTF!

i have no wish to see conspiracy nuts; but would ask that people here go beyond the punch, the Judy, the here and now - so close to the ground!

Could we not instead; speculate / philosophise / rationalise politics with the understanding that it is about more than society - it is about humanity and where things will be going. Does anybody know - who is keeping score?

I am at the point where I am post-political.

[franfran]

The views of Stalfos were worryingly close to those of Anders Breivik, he was a dangerous bigoted clown.

Just out of curiosity, I googled "Stalfos Conner" and it looks like he's only posting on his own forum now. He must have been banned everywhere else....

Fred expressed some rather nasty sentiments, but fundamentally he was a wind-up artist who delighted in outraging others, doubtless including me. Unlike the real hardline right-wing nutters he did show a sense of humour from time to time. I think the reason he drifted away in the end was that people were almost starting to like him and he wasn't here for that, he wanted to shock and outrage what he would have called "liberals".

Fred could be a bit infuriating at times, but I sort of liked him. This section of the forum isn't the same without him.