So What do you think?

[Lena]

George Bush is a complete moron. The man can barely form a coherent thought. Compared to other world leaders he sounds like a child; what an embarassment. moreover, his delusional thought patterns have caused millions of dead around the world. on a domestic level this country is going down the tubes. what is most troubling is that he seems to be an accurate reflection of the current intellectual capacity of the american populace. ever since Bush took office i've been ashamed to be an American. we better get a democrat into office next term, for everyone's sake

Unfortunately, ignorance divorced from reality and visceral hatred of Bush displayed by his detractors are causing unnecessary loss of American soldiers' lives in Iraq.

The Bush haters fervently hope that America is defeated in Iraq - even with the attendant loss of American lives - so they can call Bush a failure. The liberal blogs rejoice at every American setback in Iraq, every ambush and every car bomb, because failure in Iraq would render Bush a failure. They are so consumed with hatred for Bush that they openly root for the enemy.

Their predecessors on the left employed this strategy successfully to ensure defeat in Vietnam. Indeed, the North Vietnamese tailored their military tactics for the specific purpose of agitating American liberals to protest against the war, to eat away at America's will from within. The left obliged, in many cases rooting openly for a Viet Cong victory. You and your fellow travelers are a newer model of the same instrument.

I find such people despicably ungrateful for the freedoms they enjoy, which were obtained at great cost in blood of American boys who these self-styled "progressive liberals" smugly deride as ignorant rednecks.

The liberal left in America openly wishes for any American setback, domestic or foreign, whether it be an economic downturn or even another 9/11, so they can have a vehicle to finally regain the power they lost owing to their lack of any affirmative agenda.

Our one area of agreement is your expressed shame that you are an American. I am surely ashamed that you are an American, or at least that you call yourself one.

Oh murray , you may be a right-winger but I do like you . Sugar and I have evil plans for you in another thread ...................................

[murray]

And which thread might that be?

[you have male]

Following the coverage that your elections got over here, I was reluctant to believe that what I saw on TV truly reflected political debate in the US. I assumed that the average American could and would see through the bogus claims emanating from the right that they are the only true patriots, willing to die for their beliefs. This thread demonstrates how wrong I was. It appears that a great many ordinary Americans swallowed the pap that they were fed and have been happily spewing it out again, ever since.

murray, I find it difficult to believe that you could spout such bile. Where are the constructive proposals, the ideas, the reasoned arguments in what you wrote? It's not debate, it's merely invective of a particularly vicious and unwholesome kind.

[murray]

Following the coverage that your elections got over here, I was reluctant to believe that what I saw on TV truly reflected political debate in the US. I assumed that the average American could and would see through the bogus claims emanating from the right that they are the only true patriots, willing to die for their beliefs. This thread demonstrates how wrong I was. It appears that a great many ordinary Americans swallowed the pap that they were fed and have been happily spewing it out again, ever since.

murray, I find it difficult to believe that you could spout such bile. Where are the constructive proposals, the ideas, the reasoned arguments in what you wrote? It's not debate, it's merely invective of a particularly vicious and unwholesome kind.

I am not some ignorant, uneducated moron who never ventures outside the U.S., so I haven't "swallowed the pap."

My views come from my own analysis of facts based on my education and experience and gleaned from the international newspapers, periodicals, journals of opinion and blogs on both left and right (I primarily read those on the left because I like to address the best contrary arguments) I have been perusing every day for almost 20 years.

My profession as an admiralty attorney representing shipowners requires unvarnished knowledge of political and economic developments throughout the world on a daily basis.

My prior post was a reply to someone else's invective, which I countered with verifiable facts as required to rebut the ignorance I was addressing.

[you have male]

When you refer to the "liberal left," you seem to be using the term in the way that we used to talk about the "loony left" in the UK. They were a small but vociferous faction in the Labour Party and many of them were also members of other, more extremist parties, factions and groupings. They used various means of infiltration, such as winning control of local constituency parties, moving through the ranks of trades union representation or using local government as a springboard. Because of the way our systems work, they were occasionally able to wield far more power than their numbers warranted. What they did was not illegal but it splintered the Labour Party and rendered it unelectable. Something had to be done and, completing the umpteen-year job started by Neil Kinnock, Tony Blair finally eradicated the parasites and united and re-badged the party that we know now as New Labour.

Are you talking about something similar in the US, or are you talking about the kind of extremists who can do little more than shout very loudly, in the vain hope of subverting popular mass demonstrations? We still have those here but they are ineffectual now and we, the people, pay them little heed.

[revlarsyn]

Bush's detractors omit to mention that Bush has a higher IQ than John Kerry or Al Gore and that Bush had better grades at Yale than Kerry (who also went to Yale) or Gore (who went to Harvard). Bush then received an MBA from Harvard Business School whereas Al Gore flunked out of divinity school and Kerry received a law degree from the lesser Boston College Law School.

I wonder what Hitlers' or Saddam Husseins' IQ was/is, like it matters.

Unfortunately, ignorance divorced from reality and visceral hatred are common traits of Bush's detractors on the left.

The Bush haters fervently hope that America is defeated in Iraq - even with the attendant loss of American lives - so they can call Bush a failure. The liberal blogs rejoice at every American setback in Iraq, at every ambush and every car bomb, because defeat in Iraq would render Bush a failure. They are so consumed with hatred for Bush that they openly root for the enemy.

This seems like the rant of a hack, you seem to choose your "facts" very selectively. Bush haters, liberal blogs etc. etc. "desperate to see their own die", please don't confuse your own bias in representing liberals for fact.
Being a liberal is not a euphemism for "Bush hater" or "anti american", it means having another political view, or are Kerry and Kennedy holding GI funeral parties now ?

Their predecessors on the left employed this strategy successfully to ensure defeat in Vietnam. Indeed, the North Vietnamese tailored their military tactics for the specific purpose of agitating American liberals to protest against the war, to eat away at America's will from within. The left obliged, in many cases rooting openly for a Viet Cong victory. You and your fellow travelers are a newer model of the same instrument.

Now you sound like a National Socialist, "We would have won, but were stabbed in the back", when the real issue is willfully ignored.

I find such people despicably ungrateful for the freedoms they enjoy, which were obtained at great cost in blood of American boys who these self-styled "progressive liberals" smugly deride as ignorant rednecks.

Now you're using the Chirac gambit, how to deflect defeat. You lost the argument over Vietnam so lets find someone else to blame

The liberal left in America openly wishes for any American setback, domestic or foreign, whether it be an economic downturn or even another 9/11, so they can have a vehicle to finally regain the power they lost owing to their lack of any affirmative agenda.

Oh yeah! Every liberal, oh sorry I mean "Bush hater", wants the USA to be in the depths of reccession and subjected to military invasion.
Can't you see how implausible your representations here read ?

Our one area of agreement is your expressed shame that you are an American. I am surely ashamed that you are an American, or at least that you call yourself one.

Your just bitching now.

This type of exchange confuses debate with the tribalism of the terraces.
I expected more from you murray, I'm not sure why, but never mind.

[murray]

Bush's detractors omit to mention that Bush has a higher IQ than John Kerry or Al Gore and that Bush had better grades at Yale than Kerry (who also went to Yale) or Gore (who went to Harvard). Bush then received an MBA from Harvard Business School whereas Al Gore flunked out of divinity school and Kerry received a law degree from the lesser Boston College Law School.

I wonder what Hitlers' or Saddam Husseins' IQ was/is, like it matters.

Unfortunately, ignorance divorced from reality and visceral hatred are common traits of Bush's detractors on the left.

The Bush haters fervently hope that America is defeated in Iraq - even with the attendant loss of American lives - so they can call Bush a failure. The liberal blogs rejoice at every American setback in Iraq, at every ambush and every car bomb, because defeat in Iraq would render Bush a failure. They are so consumed with hatred for Bush that they openly root for the enemy.

This seems like the rant of a hack, you seem to choose your "facts" very selectively. Bush haters, liberal blogs etc. etc. "desperate to see their own die", please don't confuse your own bias in representing liberals for fact.
Being a liberal is not a euphemism for "Bush hater" or "anti american", it means having another political view, or are Kerry and Kennedy holding GI funeral parties now ?

Their predecessors on the left employed this strategy successfully to ensure defeat in Vietnam. Indeed, the North Vietnamese tailored their military tactics for the specific purpose of agitating American liberals to protest against the war, to eat away at America's will from within. The left obliged, in many cases rooting openly for a Viet Cong victory. You and your fellow travelers are a newer model of the same instrument.

Now you sound like a National Socialist, "We would have won, but were stabbed in the back", when the real issue is willfully ignored.

I find such people despicably ungrateful for the freedoms they enjoy, which were obtained at great cost in blood of American boys who these self-styled "progressive liberals" smugly deride as ignorant rednecks.

Now you're using the Chirac gambit, how to deflect defeat. You lost the argument over Vietnam so lets find someone else to blame

The liberal left in America openly wishes for any American setback, domestic or foreign, whether it be an economic downturn or even another 9/11, so they can have a vehicle to finally regain the power they lost owing to their lack of any affirmative agenda.

Oh yeah! Every liberal, oh sorry I mean "Bush hater", wants the USA to be in the depths of reccession and subjected to military invasion.
Can't you see how implausible your representations here read ?

Our one area of agreement is your expressed shame that you are an American. I am surely ashamed that you are an American, or at least that you call yourself one.

Your just bitching now.

This type of exchange confuses debate with the tribalism of the terraces.
I expected more from you murray, I'm not sure why, but never mind.

First, I don't know who you are and I don't give a f*** what you "expected" from me. Frankly, you don't know me so I can't understand why you would have any expectations whatsoever.

I mentioned Bush's IQ because the poster I was responding to called Bush "a complete moron" who "can barely form a coherent thought." Did you bother to read what I was responding to? I did quote it in my post, Einstein.

I find it curious that you proffer no facts to rebut what "seems" to you "like the rant of a hack." What are your qualifications to adjudge who is a hack and who is not? I stated my qualifications; now let's hear yours.

With respect to Vietnam, you are clearly ignorant. I rely on the statements of former Viet Cong themselves who admitted that military tactics were often planned with an eye toward inflaming anti-war agitators in the U.S., which included leftist and socialist groups based in universities such as UC Berkeley in the west and Columbia University in the east. These university students - who were so passionate about the needless loss of American lives - did not have to fight in Vietnam owing to college deferments from the draft.

My references to "liberals," "Bush haters" and "the left," include the following without limitation:

Democratic National Committee and its head Howard Dean

U.S. Senators - Ted Kennedy, Richard Durbin, Harry Reid, Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer, Chuck Schumer, John Kerry, Pat Leahy, Jay Rockefeller, Al Gore (former Senator)

U.S. Congress - Henry Waxman, Nancy Pelosi, Rahm Emanuel, Barbara Lee, John Conyers

Newspapers - New York Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, Boston Globe, Guardian (UK), Independent (UK)

Mass Circulation Periodicals - Time, Newsweek, Der Spiegel

Television and Radio - CBS, ABC, BBC, NBC, PBS (Public Broadcasting System), NPR (National Public Radio), Reuters, Agence France Presse, Air America Radio

Political Journals - Nation, Progressive, American Prospect, Mother Jones, Village Voice (political articles therein)

Columnists - Paul Krugman, Maureen Dowd, Anthony Lewis, Frank Rich, Bob Herbert, E.J. Dionne, Nicholas Kristof, Harold Meyerson, Victor Navasky, Katrina vanden Heuvel, Thomas Oliphant, Robert Scheer, Molly Ivins, Katha Pollitt, Robert Kuttner, Matthew Rothschild, Sidney Blumenthal, Robert Fisk, Eric Alterman, George Monbiot, Simon Hoggart, Naomi Klein, Julian Borger, David Corn, Simon Tisdall, Polly Toynbee, Martin Woollacott, Hugo Young, Gary Younge, Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Matthew Yglesias, murray Waas

Blogs - Daily Kos, Buzzflash, Democratic Underground, AmericaBlog, MoveOn.org, Liberal Oasis, Huffington Post, Smirking Chimp, Max Blumenthal, Joshua Micah Marshall, Matthew Gross, Daily Howler, Crooks and Liars, Eschaton, Talking Points Memo

Groups and Individuals - People for the American Way, American Civil Liberties Union, NARAL, Michael Moore, Al Franken, Ted Rall, Center for American Progress, George Soros

You say that "[t]his type of exchange confuses debate with the tribalism of the terraces." I have had no exchange with you, so what the f*** are you talking about?

Finally, I note your pre-emptive deployment of the ultimate weapon of the intellectually and factually underequipped: "If all else fails, call him a Nazi." I say "pre-emptive" because most of your ilk resort to the Nazi smear only after I have vivisected them intellectually and exposed their arguments as excrement. Nonetheless, I will not dignify your low brow smear with a verbal defense. For that, I will piss on you.

[Lena]

Bush's detractors omit to mention that Bush has a higher IQ than John Kerry or Al Gore and that Bush had better grades at Yale than Kerry (who also went to Yale) or Gore (who went to Harvard). Bush then received an MBA from Harvard Business School whereas Al Gore flunked out of divinity school and Kerry received a law degree from the lesser Boston College Law School.

I wonder what Hitlers' or Saddam Husseins' IQ was/is, like it matters.

Unfortunately, ignorance divorced from reality and visceral hatred are common traits of Bush's detractors on the left.

The Bush haters fervently hope that America is defeated in Iraq - even with the attendant loss of American lives - so they can call Bush a failure. The liberal blogs rejoice at every American setback in Iraq, at every ambush and every car bomb, because defeat in Iraq would render Bush a failure. They are so consumed with hatred for Bush that they openly root for the enemy.

This seems like the rant of a hack, you seem to choose your "facts" very selectively. Bush haters, liberal blogs etc. etc. "desperate to see their own die", please don't confuse your own bias in representing liberals for fact.
Being a liberal is not a euphemism for "Bush hater" or "anti american", it means having another political view, or are Kerry and Kennedy holding GI funeral parties now ?

Their predecessors on the left employed this strategy successfully to ensure defeat in Vietnam. Indeed, the North Vietnamese tailored their military tactics for the specific purpose of agitating American liberals to protest against the war, to eat away at America's will from within. The left obliged, in many cases rooting openly for a Viet Cong victory. You and your fellow travelers are a newer model of the same instrument.

Now you sound like a National Socialist, "We would have won, but were stabbed in the back", when the real issue is willfully ignored.

I find such people despicably ungrateful for the freedoms they enjoy, which were obtained at great cost in blood of American boys who these self-styled "progressive liberals" smugly deride as ignorant rednecks.

Now you're using the Chirac gambit, how to deflect defeat. You lost the argument over Vietnam so lets find someone else to blame

The liberal left in America openly wishes for any American setback, domestic or foreign, whether it be an economic downturn or even another 9/11, so they can have a vehicle to finally regain the power they lost owing to their lack of any affirmative agenda.

Oh yeah! Every liberal, oh sorry I mean "Bush hater", wants the USA to be in the depths of reccession and subjected to military invasion.
Can't you see how implausible your representations here read ?

Our one area of agreement is your expressed shame that you are an American. I am surely ashamed that you are an American, or at least that you call yourself one.

Your just bitching now.

This type of exchange confuses debate with the tribalism of the terraces.
I expected more from you murray, I'm not sure why, but never mind.

First, I don't know who you are and I don't give a f*** what you "expected" from me. Frankly, you don't know me so I can't understand why you would have any expectations whatsoever.

I mentioned Bush's IQ because the poster I was responding to called Bush "a complete moron" who "can barely form a coherent thought." Did you bother to read what I was responding to? I did quote it in my post, Einstein.

I find it curious that you proffer no facts to rebut what "seems" to you "like the rant of a hack." What are your qualifications to adjudge who is a hack and who is not? I stated my qualifications; now let's hear yours.

With respect to Vietnam, you are clearly ignorant. I rely on the statements of former Viet Cong themselves who admitted that military tactics were often planned with an eye toward inflaming anti-war agitators in the U.S., which included leftist and socialist groups based in universities such as UC Berkeley in the west and Columbia University in the east. These university students - who were so passionate about the needless loss of American lives - did not have to fight in Vietnam owing to college deferments from the draft.

My references to "liberals," "Bush haters" and "the left," include the following without limitation:

Democratic National Committee and its head Howard Dean

U.S. Senators - Ted Kennedy, Richard Durbin, Harry Reid, Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer, Chuck Schumer, John Kerry, Pat Leahy, Jay Rockefeller, Al Gore (former Senator)

U.S. Congress - Henry Waxman, Nancy Pelosi, Rahm Emanuel, Barbara Lee, John Conyers

Newspapers - New York Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, Boston Globe, Guardian (UK), Independent (UK)

Mass Circulation Periodicals - Time, Newsweek, Der Spiegel

Television and Radio - CBS, ABC, BBC, NBC, PBS (Public Broadcasting System), NPR (National Public Radio), Reuters, Agence France Presse, Air America Radio

Political Journals - Nation, Progressive, American Prospect, Mother Jones, Village Voice (political articles therein)

Columnists - Paul Krugman, Maureen Dowd, Anthony Lewis, Frank Rich, Bob Herbert, E.J. Dionne, Nicholas Kristof, Harold Meyerson, Victor Navasky, Katrina vanden Heuvel, Thomas Oliphant, Robert Scheer, Molly Ivins, Katha Pollitt, Robert Kuttner, Matthew Rothschild, Sidney Blumenthal, Robert Fisk, Eric Alterman, George Monbiot, Simon Hoggart, Naomi Klein, Julian Borger, David Corn, Simon Tisdall, Polly Toynbee, Martin Woollacott, Hugo Young, Gary Younge, Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Matthew Yglesias, murray Waas

Blogs - Daily Kos, Buzzflash, Democratic Underground, AmericaBlog, MoveOn.org, Liberal Oasis, Huffington Post, Smirking Chimp, Max Blumenthal, Joshua Micah Marshall, Matthew Gross, Daily Howler, Crooks and Liars, Eschaton, Talking Points Memo

Groups and Individuals - People for the American Way, American Civil Liberties Union, NARAL, Michael Moore, Al Franken, Ted Rall, Center for American Progress, George Soros

You say that "[t]his type of exchange confuses debate with the tribalism of the terraces." I have had no exchange with you, so what the f*** are you talking about?

Finally, I note your pre-emptive deployment of the ultimate weapon of the intellectually and factually underequipped: "If all else fails, call him a Nazi." I say "pre-emptive" because most of your ilk resort to the Nazi smear only after I have vivisected them intellectually and exposed their arguments as excrement. Nonetheless, I will not dignify your low brow smear with a verbal defense. For that, I will piss on you.

murray STOP !!!!! If you only have that right wing dope fiend Rush or that headcase Ollie on in the background you won't ever be able to see my gf and I in your king size bed clad only in thigh - tops rubbing motion lotion over each other , all that far-right mumbo jumbo kills my libido .

[murray]

Ok Lena.

I will retract everything I said above, become a Democrat and renounce my intellect and wisdom and my well-reasoned and logical arguments -- if I can have a full day with you and your girlfriend in New York.

We can begin on my 10th floor terrace (it's quite large, about 10' X 40') in full view of the neighbors and then move the activities indoors.

Sex (but only if it's good sex) trumps politics any day.

[murray]

If you want an example of Bush-hating liberals, read the following factual news story dated 15 July 2005:

http://www.cnsnews,com//ViewPolitics.asp?Page=\Politics\archive\200507\POL20050715a.html

[Pure-Angel]

Yeah, I bet that was made by a liberal. I'm 100% positive they probably edited a few stuff to make conservatives, like Bush sound so horrible DANG those CONSEVATIVES, there doing the right thing!

Pure-Angle

[murray]

Angel,

Please tell me you're not being sarcastic.

If you are really a conservative, you have made my day.

Read the previous page and the top of this page and you will see the bullsh*i I have had to deal with in educating self-righteous, narrow-minded, ignorant liberals.

[whosthere]

I'm from America and my opinion is American Politics is only for the corrupt and diabolical. So if we are talking how great of a scheming and decietful man Bush is...then he's great. Almost as good as Kerry would have been.

America needs a leader who actually helps out its communities and cares about education in my opinion.

[little^goth^girl]

It isn't Bush who is corrupt. It is the institutions, the system that is corrupt. It is based around maximising profits and maintaining the wealthy elite. It just so happens Bush does this well. Democrats pursue the same capitalistic mandate as Republicans. Let's not concentrate hatred on Bush as an individual, but on the system of unregulated free markets and capital flows.

[Lena]

Ok Lena.

I will retract everything I said above, become a Democrat and renounce my intellect and wisdom and my well-reasoned and logical arguments -- if I can have a full day with you and your girlfriend in New York.

We can begin on my 10th floor terrace (it's quite large, about 10' X 40') in full view of the neighbors and then move the activities indoors.

Sex (but only if it's good sex) trumps politics any day.

murray : Sorry but our posts were deleted . Oh no !!! I am so bored Mur , it''s my day off , my gf is at school . All I am doing is sitting aroound the apartment in flesh colored bra , bikini briefs , garter belt with nude stockings and NOTHING to do ......oh where are penis people when you need them ?