why don't guys say what they feel

[hi_there]

Speaking for myself, and leaving out quite a bit still.. by age 10 I had learned to lie, to hide things that I was sensitive about, to not bring up topics that others responded negatively toward, to deliberately obfuscate to protect myself from punishment, teasing and judgments by others.

By age 20 I was tall and strong and those things became easier. People stopped questioning me openly about whether I might have lied or what secret thoughts I had.

By age 30 I felt shame over most of my emotions and desires and lost nearly all feelings of happiness and life seemed to have nothing substantial to offer me, I could see little to look forward to...

I'm now 37 and trying desperately to be open, communicative and honest. That's brought me peace and happiness although it is still to this day a nerve-wracking experience for me to really open up and tell others what's going on inside me.

It's not that I didn't know what I thought (although often I could not identify exactly how I felt about something or other) but rather that I was utterly terrified that giving away the information would ultimately cause me emotional pain.

I get the impression that many men have a similar biography.You are male,right ? Are you British,too ? Great Britain is a very lad-defined (thus anti sensitive emotion and communication) culture,so it wouldn't suprise me,if you have learnt these attributes.I know a British man who is in the exact same position.Opening up can be a truly great experience.

I am indeed male, 37 an as American as apple pie. Born and raised in the heartland and currently living on the west coast.

[GAPeach]

MM loved the rant!! YOU GO GIRL!!! I think that your post have just spoken for a good portion of the women in the world, especially the married ones.
Mostirreverent you must be related to my husband, that is what he does he gets pist at the lawn mower, he cusses it out. I guess cause it won't cuss him back. lol I appreciate all your post cause it has helped me deal with my hubby. He says he's never opened up because that is how is dad was and his mom. I do not understand how he can keep everything balled up inside him. I have to get it off my chest (female first has helped alot too) The other day he asked what was wrong(I was on my cellphone with him). I said we'd talk when I got home. He said no he wanted to talk now. I sure did not want everyone in my small town to hear our conversation over the scanner. So when I got home we just talked a lil and he still never opened up to me. So how do I get him to open up???
GAPEACH

[mostirreverent]

He felt he listened to you since you needed him to. Now, there is no reason for him to open up, just because he was willing to listen. He feels there are no “issues” that he needs to deal with, or at least ones that will be solve by taking.

I suppose though, you could always say, “I know you seem generally quiet. Are there things that you think about that make you happy/sad/x/y… that you don’t think are worth talking about? I was just wondering. Or what do you daydream about besides sex. If you had to choose a religion, what would it be? Stuff that neither of you talk about, but that could spark a conversation about what he feels about stuff. You could pick any number of topics from this site, and ask his opinion. Or, say, “hey, if you mom and dad were to talk, what would each want to say to the other do you thin”

Careful about what you wish for…he may say that he hates that you cut your hair like all the other moms, or that he feels trapped with you because his body has gone to hell and he cant attract woman any more. You know, the ugly truth that is sometimes life. Then again, if you knew, you could let your hair grow or what have you.

[WiredCoffeeJunkie]

I can't help that you're so needy.

-Mike

Yeah, well women can't help it that a huge majority of men are assholes either. But who cares, you guys aren't listening anyway, right?



MM

Is that all you got out of my post? One line... now who's not listening?
How did you get your children to talk to you and tell you about their day? You might try the same thing with the men in your life instead of finding one thing and obsessing over it.

-Mike (a.k.a. the insenstive one)

[WiredCoffeeJunkie]

I was watching an interesting documentery earlier about men and communication or lack there of. One suggestion that has come up is that men are genitcally programmed not to respond to emotion. They used the example of the first men on the african plains about to kill for food, and being able to get past emotion to kill for food. Interesting I thought. Men are coming around though, evaluation takes millions and millions of years (as well as some good ol' fashion coxing from a female partner)

Oh I disagree. Men and women both are genetically programmed to communicate. The areas for writing in the brain are new and distinct from talking, but large areas of the brain in both men and women are devoted to communication. We didn't evolve on an savanna either. That's a theory going all the way back to Professor Dart in 1925 and very unproven. Marc Verhaegen in 2000 came up with a much more probable theory based on our wet land physiology versus dry adapted savanna animals. I'm not talking about the "aquatic ape" theory that most serious researchers discount, but real problems that humans do have and would have had living on the savanna.

[MarriedMom]

Is that all you got out of my post? One line... now who's not listening?
How did you get your children to talk to you and tell you about their day? You might try the same thing with the men in your life instead of finding one thing and obsessing over it.

-Mike (a.k.a. the insenstive one)

No, Mike, that isn't all I got out of your post. Let me clear the air right now and say I am sorry for getting so riled up over this post. I don't want this to be a pissing contest. I got what you were saying by responding to my comeback. But you see, this problem is usually a never-ending cycle. And I'm NOT totally blaming men for this problem, as women have their issues too. I understand what you are saying.

Woman talks (including what men perceive as "trivial" information). Man hears just enough to soak in that she is bothered, and drowns out the rest. The "rest" seems important to us. Women feel they are not being clear in getting their point across unless they include this stuff. You know how women "remember every little detail"? Well, we have a tendency to include those "little details" because we feel that they somehow add to helping you better understand what we are feeling or are trying to express. We want someone to somewhat "relive" what we experienced to some degree. Yes, I will agree, the "trivial" information is unnecessary to men, and to most women. But it's part of what we experienced. Even if it's a small detail, like, "...before I told him that, I walked over and poured a cup of coffee, and he was looking at me, but when I looked back, he turned away, and then after my cup was filled...." BLAH BLAH BLAH.. lol. You've been trapped in a convo like that one before, I'm sure. Women try to "paint a picture" when they speak. As to WHY exactly, I couldn't really tell you. When women do this, it is easier for a man to shut it out than to sit and try to dissect a conversation that they are overwhelmed by.

As far as the "listening sometimes", that's a given for me. Just because I didn't mention it in my "rant" it doesn't mean that I wouldn't listen if my man actually talked for a change. And when he does, I soak in every word. I find myself fortunate when he actually does open up. Most of the time, when he does, it's because of some subtle suggestion that I threw out there, such as mostirreverent suggested. It's like milking a mouse to get anything out of him. It takes a while, but eventually I get something out of him through quick, to the point questions.

I will agree with you wired, that some women will never give a man a word in edgewise. I can't even stand talking to women like that, so I understand your feelings on that problem. But not ALL women are self-centered enough to not hear what their man has to say. Yeah, we unload our baggage, and it's understandable how men would want to "shut out" most of what they hear. But you know, men could simply speak up and say, "Okay. Too many details. What's really bothering you?" It's not so much that we WANT to go into extreme detail, we just end up doing it to paint that picture and put you in our shoes. What we are really seeking is for our men to show genuine concern or interest when we do approach them in conversation. We are after all human, and we need a reminder once in a while that we are going too far off the deep end when it comes to "gabbing away" about mundane information.

As far as me typing too much, I honestly don't mean to go into an essay on responses. I'm sure you've seen some of my other posts, and it's evident I have a habit of doing this. I'm an extremely quick typer, and I have a tendency to fly through a topic. Besides, if I didn't type as much, I'd just be coming back more often to add my "trivial information" to the post. LOL

Thank you for being so open and honest in your post. I just hope you can better understand from my perspective why it is that women have a tendency to ramble on about the "unimportant" details. When we are recreating a story/scenario, we honestly don't think about the details as being trivial at the time. I occasionally need a reminder from my husband to "get to the root of the matter" and I just chuckle at myself and eventually get to the point. We need reminders occasionally too, that's all I'm trying to say.

I really do respect your opinion on this subject, and I hope I haven't offended you too terribly with some of my responses. I guess it's just a touchy topic for me (and a lot of other women who have trouble talking to their S/O's as well).

MM

[Lola]

Oh I disagree. Men and women both are genetically programmed to communicate. The areas for writing in the brain are new and distinct from talking, but large areas of the brain in both men and women are devoted to communication.

Would you say that the communication problems between many men and women are socially constructed then or what are your theories ?

[WiredCoffeeJunkie]

Would you say that the communication problems between many men and women are socially constructed then or what are your theories ?

Yes, I think so. There ARE differences between the genders based on research in hormones and their impact on fetus development. But and it is a huge but, if you don't train children to communicate at a young age you will ruin their chances of ever learning to communicate. Studies on children who had this happen to them (pitable things) are very backward and unable to function in society, sometimes never learning to communicate beyond a grunt of anger/happiness. That said, men aren't those poor children, we do more than grunt occasionally. Some of us are well paid writers and some are therapists, so it's possible for us men to do more than pound our animals lusts out on innocent lawnmowers.

Spend the time, just like you do with your children. Ask how their day went. Ask about what they did. Listen. You'll both be better for it. Him because he's getting to unload some of the stress that eventually kills men (and contributes to the midlife crisis) and you because you learn to listen. Listening is something I've found women do very poorly compared to men. (In general)

ps. MM I never got mad. I'm about the most mellow person you ever met. I do write what I think.

[Lola]

Would you say that the communication problems between many men and women are socially constructed then or what are your theories ?

Yes, I think so. There ARE differences between the genders based on research in hormones and their impact on fetus development. But and it is a huge but, if you don't train children to communicate at a young age you will ruin their chances of ever learning to communicate. Studies on children who had this happen to them (pitable things) are very backward and unable to function in society, sometimes never learning to communicate beyond a grunt of anger/happiness. That said, men aren't those poor children, we do more than grunt occasionally. Some of us are well paid writers and some are therapists, so it's possible for us men to do more than pound our animals lusts out on innocent lawnmowers.

Spend the time, just like you do with your children. Ask how their day went. Ask about what they did. Listen. You'll both be better for it. Him because he's getting to unload some of the stress that eventually kills men (and contributes to the midlife crisis) and you because you learn to listen. Listening is something I've found women do very poorly compared to men. (In general)

ps. MM I never got mad. I'm about the most mellow person you ever met. I do write what I think.

How are the communication problems between men and women socially constructed ? I'm wanting opinions on gender and communication problems,not general communication problems.
You don't say anything about that

[WiredCoffeeJunkie]

How are the communication problems between men and women socially constructed ? I'm wanting opinions on gender and communication problems,not general communication problems.
You don't say anything about that

I generally wait to answer topics that I know something about It would have to be a opinion and only that.

If communications between a salesperson and a CIO for instance can be so messed up at times, then wouldn't two children raised from birth very differently also have problems communicating? Men and women are raised differently and continue through life with different expectations and methods of communicating. I know this personally from my own upbringing and from raising my own children. This doesn't mean they can't learn to communicate with each other, it simply introduces difficulty.

[Lola]

Opinions or results from gender studies etc ...

Anywayy,yeah.Just wanted to see where you stand.

[mostirreverent]

MM wrote
As far as me typing too much, I honestly don't mean to go into an essay on responses. I'm sure you've seen some of my other posts, and it's evident I have a habit of doing this. I'm an extremely quick typer, and I have a tendency to fly through a topic. Besides, if I didn't type as much, I'd just be coming back more often to add my "trivial information" to the post. LOL

Mosty's reply:
I have nothing to add right now. I just wanted to say that at this point in reading your post, I quite literally laughed out loud.

[mostirreverent]

Ok, now I have something.

This post has gone from men not talking (reasons I have already given) to why we don’t listen, to trouble interpreting or understanding each other.

As for the details women add, and those men do not hear, I would venture a guess, that its cause is both nature and nurture (even though our nurture is a construct sociologically of our nature). From the evolutionary biology standporit, perhaps women see the leaves of the bush from which they pick the berries, and men see just that there is an animal that he must instantly attack, and not the bushes aroung the animal. From nurture, we may not find the details or topic of a feeling worth talking about, since we just want to slove the base problem irrespective of the feelings caused by the problem (the car did not start this morning, so lets fix it. Not to concerned about that it was a disappointing affair). O.K, not the best example, but something along those lines…

I have to add, that I have more patience for other peoples problems then my own. i can also read better than listen.

[WiredCoffeeJunkie]

Mostirreverent, women make good hunters too. They have to be taught of course just like men, but dealing with the tedium of the search, the thrill of the chase and the kill are still there. We are not hardwired into any role by gender. Of course we may be slightly, very slightly, better at one thing due to gender. The differences in gender are trivial compared to, let's say an Englishman's advantages at cricket, even if he never played it, compared to an American like me trying it.

[WiredCoffeeJunkie]

Some things that might help on this topic

1. Attitude towards tasks vs. relationships. Women tend to be more relationship oriented and accomplish tasks by building relationships first. They then know who to ask and are comfortable asking others to get things done. Men tend to be more task oriented and go straight to the task. They build their relationships when they are in the task or project.

2. Way of Processing Information. When women have to make a decision they will often process and look at options out loud while men tend to process internally until they come up with a solution. Women often think that the man is being unresponsive to suggestions because of this and men often think that women are looking for approval when they process out loud or don't know what they are doing. Some men think that a woman's way of processing is a sign of weakness.

3. Leadership Style. Because women are more relationship oriented, they tend to lead by consensus. Men tend to be more hierarchical and include only the people closest to them at their level in the decision making process when they think it is necessary.

4. Communication Styles. In non-verbal behavior women will nod their head to show that they are listening. Men leave the conversation thinking that a head nod means agreement and will be surprised to find out that the woman didn't agree at all. When a woman is speaking to a man and he does not say anything and stays in neutral body language to show that he is listening, a woman will interpret that as the man being bored or not understanding what she is saying. This can lead the woman to become very uncomfortable and repeat what she is saying or ask the man each time if he understands what she is saying. The man then interprets that as insecurity, or talking to much and which then lead him to think she is not assertive or confident to be a leader. Women will actually use more direct eye contact in conversation to create relationship and connection while many men take that as a challenge to their power or position. Women will also approach a man from the front while men often approach from the side at an angle, which is how each of them tends to stand or sit when talking to others. Men interpret the face to face as too personal, or aggressive and women will interpret the talking side to side as though he is not being upfront or even hiding something from her.

5. Talk time. Men take up more time and space at meetings, while women try to make sure there is more equality in the room. Despite stereotypes to the contrary studies have shown that men talk more then women. Men interrupt women and talk over them much more that women interrupt men. All of this can lead to the type of miscommunication based on assumptions of why member of the other sex are using certain verbal and non-verbal behaviors. These miscommunications can result in team breakdown, people not listening to each other and loss of good ideas.

Take these facts with a grain of salt. It's important not to use this information to stereotype all men or all women. Of course not everyone fits these generalizations. These are cultural norms based on research that showed that a large majority of men and women display some of these characteristics.

(Reprinted without permission - Simma Lieberman)