Womens rights -> has the world come far enough?

[one_irish_rover]

The UK for instance is far more "liberated" than the US.

What makes you say that? My experience with UK is that it's still quite "Old Boys Network," with respect to politics, academia/science, medicine, and business. US is less so.

[Meursault]

the problem is that you can't change culture....moreover, you'd be surprised how many of these eastern women agree with the way their societies think. some of the ones I've met are hopelessly backward and couldn't care less about equality.

Yeah, because culture sure hasn't changed in the past??

Lots of serfs agreed with the feudal system. Ending serfdom was good thing. Lots of women in Britain didn't think women should be emanicipated and enfranchised. Women's rights was a good thing.

Let's all stop being so wishy-washy moral relativist. There are key, universal principles of human dignity and rights to stand up for. I for one have no qualms about 'imposing' morality on ethically bankrupt states (including, imo, America and Britain, possibly two of the most unethical countries in the world).

M

[WiredCoffeeJunkie]

The UK for instance is far more "liberated" than the US.

What makes you say that? My experience with UK is that it's still quite "Old Boys Network," with respect to politics, academia/science, medicine, and business. US is less so.

Good call.

It's part of the training in the service to warn American's that the English women are more liberated than Americans. My experiance bore this out. A quick look at the number of women in politics, not just high level politics seems to corroborate the theory as well. It would be nearly, or impossible to staff a quarter of a select committee with women in the US, no less the 50%-50% that seems to be common in the UK. There are regional differences in America of course.

I'd have to disagree about American business not using an "old boy" network. The majority of high level jobs are provided through personal relations with a matchmaker. It could be a trusted executive recruiter, or it could be a friend in the country club. Nevertheless most high level managers agree that a crucial skill that all aspiring managers must develop is... golf.

I'm not an expert in human relations or social theory by any means and I'm open to any corroboration of your theory.

[MM6]

We're getting a little off the point here - women in the West have as much freedom and equal rights as men - thats not debatable its a fact. However, there are degrees of equality as WCJ says above - more women in Politics in the UK. But the old boy network is alive and well wherever you go...and women still have to fight hard to be equal in what is still a mans world. And dont come back at me if you aren't female because frankly you have no experience of this type of covert sexism so shut up.
But talk about womens rights in Afganisthan or Pakistan or China and then you have to conclude that women might as well be cattle or sheep in these regions as the culture is so backward that they are not valued as human beings. This is real grass roots basic in your face discrimination and we cant deny its impact on those societies. Read this page on Human Rights Watch : Click Here

[WiredCoffeeJunkie]

Edited

My current boss is a woman and she's very competent at her job of managing people and running a women owned company.

My sad experience with people in managerial positions is that unfortunately, good managers are rare and good women managers are... once in a lifetime experiences.

Putting the cart before the horse can cause a great deal of damage. This means both putting unprepared people in positions where they can cause damage to their cause, and attempting to change societies that are not ready socially or economically for a transition. Or attempting to change a region when, as we are now, over extended. Between India, Indonesia and China the West is extending it's economic advantage to the very limit. The dislocations caused by India's Information Technology revolution is nothing compared to the flood of imports from China. Ultimately everyone benefits, but significant portions of society are dislocated and this will only accelerate as China uses it's strengthing economy. The war in Iraq and the rebuilding is taxing the West's resources and will power to the limit. A failure here could cause generations of problems. I'm more than willing to debate any point of course. In other words making the west even less liked by meddling with working societies is stupid at this point in time.

Flooding the polls with women who will vote to put shackles on themselves or putting them into a workforce with rampant unemployment already only exacerbates the problem. Propaganda also works best when it’s applied scientifically to the society you wish to change. Calls “to arms” against anti-feminist policies should be done carefully, or you’ll just alienate the people you’re trying to help. For example using economic warfare to force liberty issues in China, India, Africa, the Mid-east, indeed everywhere the west has meddled, has caused widespread mistrust and, to put it mildly, dislike of the West.

Yes, all people deserve personal liberty, but it’s pushing this very liberty down the throats of the world that has caused much of the current backlash against us. Sometimes it's best to lead by example.

[MM6]

Flooding the polls with women who will vote to put shackles on themselves...only exacerbates the problem

So you are now the spokesman for these millions of women.....thats the most baseless comment Ive ever read. Not having a voice in the society you live in is probably one of the most basic violations of human rights still allowed to continue to this day. Hey lets keep the women silent ok - after all they have no idea how to vote anyway....wtf?

Put black man in that statement instead of woman and see how utterley outrageous your comment is. Obviously civil rights was lost on you huh.

[aurora]

Flooding the polls with women who will vote to put shackles on themselves or putting them into a workforce with rampant unemployment already only exacerbates the problem. Propaganda also works best when it’s applied scientifically to the society you wish to change. Calls “to arms” against anti-feminist policies should be done carefully, or you’ll just alienate the people you’re trying to help. For example using economic warfare to force liberty issues in China, India, Africa, the Mid-east, indeed everywhere the west has meddled, has caused widespread mistrust and, to put it mildly, dislike of the West.

Yes, all people deserve personal liberty, but it’s pushing this very liberty down the throats of the world that has caused much of the current backlash against us. Sometimes it's best to lead by example.

Well said..

[WiredCoffeeJunkie]

Flooding the polls with women who will vote to put shackles on themselves...only exacerbates the problem

So you are now the spokesman for these millions of women.....thats the most baseless comment Ive ever read. Not having a voice in the society you live in is probably one of the most basic violations of human rights still allowed to continue to this day. Hey lets keep the women silent ok - after all they have no idea how to vote anyway....wtf?

Put black man in that statement instead of woman and see how utterley outrageous your comment is. Obviously civil rights was lost on you huh.

Not at all. You're the one who doesn't understand that these women have a role and a place in their society. They do have rights and obligations under the Koran which they have the right and obligation to enforce in public court. You're forcing your ideas on them, which is my whole point.

YES I absolutely believe in Representative Democracy, but it's MY belief and I understand enough about politics to know there are other workable, maybe better, modes of government. For instance and just for instance taking a right we take for granted in the West, My idea of freedom of speech is entirely different than yours. I prefer my country's version better as I have little chance of going to jail for publishing my memoirs. Maybe the US should invade your sad benighted country to enforce our version of freedom of speech? Do you follow this reversal? Do you see how dangerous it is to use your moral values to judge an entire people?

The role of government is create and ensure laws are enforced as well as provide certain services. The laws govern those behaviors and provide those services where either free rider issues or externalities are a problem, among other things.

NONE of which absolutely demand you vote. In fact ignorant mob rule is another primary reason for government too. No single person with a real day job can know what's happening in the whole country. Hence the hated, but needed, public servants that we elect to spend their time understanding the bigger picture.

(A free rider issue is just for instance - public defense. Everyone agrees there must be public defense, but no one alone could afford a jet fighter and those who could wouldn't buy one to defend everone else.)

(An externality is just for instance - pollution. Someone polluting may kill a million fish, but if she doesn't eat fish, she doesn't care. You might, but it doesn't impact her.)

For more information
http://www.economist.com/research/Economics/alphabetic.cfm

[WiredCoffeeJunkie]

Sometimes it's best to lead by example.

Well said..

Easier said than done.

[MM6]

You're the one who doesn't understand that these women have a role and a place in their society. They do have rights and obligations under the Koran which they have the right and obligation to enforce in public court. You're forcing your ideas on them, which is my whole point.

Im forcing what ideas on them ? Did I even mention any use of force - anywhere - or is that your baseless justification for your pointless rant? Did anyone mention Muslim women? I certainly didnt - I was discussing your statement which correct me if Im wrong said *Flooding the polls with women who will vote to put shackles on themselves will....exacerbate the problem* I was talking about violation of basic human rights which deny these women a voice. I was calling you to defend your comment which you have plainly been unable to do without resorting to Brit bashing and putting words in my mouth and piling your frankly way off the mark opinions onto me.

My idea of freedom of speech is entirely different than yours.

How do you even presume to know what MY idea of freedom of speech is??

I prefer my country's version better as I have little chance of going to jail for publishing my memoirs

Yeah the States is the haven of democracy all right - George Bush so deserved to get into office - after all he did get all the votes...well didnt he? And maybe we shouldnt even mention Karl Rove ...

Maybe the US should invade your sad benighted country to enforce our version of freedom of speech? Do you follow this reversal? Do you see how dangerous it is to use your moral values to judge an entire people?

WTF? Are you for real? Where did I ever use my moral values to *judge an entire people* or advocate invasion to enforce freedom of speech. Or is this another of your throwaway comments directed into the air....and addressing no point in particular? Please think again and address it to some wacko redneck soldier...

The role of government is create and ensure laws are enforced as well as provide certain services. The laws govern those behaviors and provide those services where either free rider issues or externalities are a problem, among other things.

NONE of which absolutely demand you vote. In fact ignorant mob rule is another primary reason for government too. No single person with a real day job can know what's happening in the whole country. Hence the hated, but needed, public servants that we elect to spend their time understanding the bigger picture.

(A free rider issue is just for instance - public defense. Everyone agrees there must be public defense, but no one alone could afford a jet fighter and those who could wouldn't buy one to defend everone else.)

(An externality is just for instance - pollution. Someone polluting may kill a million fish, but if she doesn't eat fish, she doesn't care. You might, but it doesn't impact her.)

For more information
http://www.economist.com/research/Economics/alphabetic.cfm

And try to stick to the point.....copying great screeds from text books only makes you look rather silly.....

[WiredCoffeeJunkie]

Too many presuppositions to handle at once.

First off, I like women in general and one in particular I more than like. Although she has very different political views I still think she should vote. I'd love a discussion on the ethical, moral and societal value of voting. I'm very much in favor of it and emancipation in general.

Second you're correct that I focused on Muslim women in particular. I should have been more generic in my response.

Third you're wrong if you believe that your moral values must apply to women in China, Afganastan or anywhere else where they have a workable society. The first rule of all moral creeds that are recognized as "good" is the golden rule. Arguing with the women there to hold political demonstrations for the right to vote is a great idea, but don't be surprised if they think it would endanger their very real power in their society.

Fourth if my opinion of you is off the mark then simply educate me. Incidently my opinion of you is pretty high. I meant no offense.

Fifth, freedom of speech is different in all countries which is why I chose it. Mentioning the Adolph guy from WWII in an email in Germany can get you barred from your ISP. Publishing your memoirs in Britian (your country) can get you thrown in jail (Look up "pUBLICATION OF pOLITICAL MEMOIRS")
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmpubadm/uc689-ii/uc68902.htm
(Any public use of, or reference to, the contents should make clear that neither witnesses nor Members have had the opportunity to correct the record. The transcript is not yet an approved formal record of these proceedings.)


Sixth the USA is in fact a bastion of Democracy. We do not have Marxist or socialist leanings like the UK.

Seventh, I enjoy philosophy and economics, but I recognize many others don't. I don't quote great screeds from text books that I haven't read or understand. I quote and refer to documents or books where more information on why I hold a view can be found. I hope you'll notice that my references are of high quality.

[WiredCoffeeJunkie]

And try to stick to the point.....copying great screeds from text books only makes you look rather silly.....

I didn't copy anything from a book. Those were my own thoughts, or I would have given a reference to the book and placed the quote in quotation marks. It could be possible you are finding refuge in personally attacking me... I would like to stop this now with an apology.

I apologize if any comments of mine were taken as a personal attack on you rather than a discusion, prehaps appearing heated, of a viewpiont we both are arguing.

[MM6]

Firstly I never said you didnt like women, but if you feel the need to defend yourself then go ahead.

Second Point - agreed

Third Point - I was not advocating the killing or maiming of children here ...I was talking about a basic human right which women if they are educated about it and given the chance to do so will grasp with open arms. You dont need to be a political analyst to work that one out. So a softly softly approachj may be needed - that being so I fail to see where I am wrong in thinking giving a woman the right to vote about what happens in her country is wrong.

Freedom of speech is different yes - but your comment presumed to know what my opinion on it is.

I reiterate my first point which you have again not addressed - *flooding the polls * yadda yadda....

My point is a valid one. You have chosen to ignore it. I can only assume you do not agree with freedom and equality of speech and thought for all. Correct me if I am wrong here.

[MM6]

I am not personally attacking you - I do find it tedious however when half baked thoughts are posted which have no direct reference to the point being discussed. This immediately makes me alert to the possibility that the poster is trying to look or sound more intelligent than he/she is.

[WiredCoffeeJunkie]

I am not personally attacking you - I do find it tedious however when half baked thoughts are posted which have no direct reference to the point being discussed. This immediately makes me alert to the possibility that the poster is trying to look or sound more intelligent than he/she is.

Ok.